[GB] Hera, Aphrodite, Poseidon

[Eliahad]

Hera, Aphrodite and Poseidon. These are the three gods that seem to be most problematic when it comes to 'situational' cards. I think that has to do with what their skill sets are, and how we were still learning the play-space when we created their sets. I'm intending this thread as a way to think through my fingers.

Each of these three deities has a less straight forward skill set than Zeus, Athena and Hermes. Instead of being directly related to manipulating the Godball, they instead rely on indirect ways to achieve their goals.

Hera - Originally she was the Goddess of curses, but now that we have changed them to 'gifts' it becomes less obvious. I currently like a lot of the gifts that she has, it's her direct cards that seem difficult to apply as 'curses. So I start over.

Hera is a schemer and a plotter. She enjoyed revenge. Revenge in our game, however, has to come in the form of turning someone else's play to your own ends. Cards should be manipulative, but not necessarily mean. Her cards, in general, should influence other heroes more than her own. Direct cards that move opposing heroes. Direct cards that move terrain carrying objects and other heroes. Direct cards that manipulate objects themselves.

Hera's gifts should be unusual, as opposed to the straight forward gifts that Zeus has. The 5 hex 'immediate' throw, is a good example of this. The kick gift where you fall down after kicking something, also a good example. (Though that shouldn't be a mandatory kick anymore.)

Maybe she is a good candidate for /or/ cards? Her reactionary ability comes into play by how she's ready in a situation with a contingency plan.

(I thought of a shove gift, where the hero can shove a piece of terrain. Ares? Poseidon?)

[Eliahad]

Poseidon - We already know that his cards have to do with terrain, and I think he's gotten to a point that he has a goodly amount of terrain in his cards. Now it's a matter of doing things with that terrain.

I think he already has a good set of gifts. And we already know how we feel about the labyrinth. He needs cards that can do things with terrain. Some of his terrain cards should probably emulate hero actions in some way. Pod of Dolphins was a great example of this. As was the 'puddle jumper' card.

(Incidentally, that could be turned into a gift to become more useful. 2 AP to move from a water hex to a water hex up to 2 hexes away, maybe? (And a 'regular move' too?)

I think Poseidon isn't that far away, but his set needs to be evaluated for situational cards, and they need to be adjusted to have a more common utility.

[Eliahad]

Aphrodite

Her card set is unusual as well. It has a goodly amount of cards that benefit her in some way, but also potentially benefit others as well. She has too many gifts, and too many situational direct cards. A card should never have more than 1 condition associated with it. So her card that exchanges gifts on the board of adjacent heroes requires 2 conditions to be true, and while that could happen, it will be so rare that it makes the card not worth it.

I think the focus, instead, should be on this idea that while her cards might be powerful, someone else almost always benefits from that power, too. Moving 2 heroes closer together (or pushing them apart.) The fascination gift. The pull of the pillar of heaven. We need to go further in this direction with Aphrodite to really make her shine. Maybe all of her direct cards involve pairs of things. Terrain gets pushed closer together, or pulled further apart. A move blessing where she can move an extra hex, but an opponent also gets to move an extra hex. Things like that.

[Mike]

Totally on board here. Zeus, Athena, Hermes are all relatively straightforward. Zeus is more about power, Athena more about hero boosts, Hermes more about speed and movement. But essentially they are all about efficient ways of moving a ball to a goal. The others need tweaking to maintain their identities as we adjust the rules.

I think the uniqueness of the decks is a real strength of the game.

[Eliahad]

I have made a card by card analysis of Hera, Aphrodite and Poseidon. They are in the 'notes' column of the Powers Playground. Flame, I can't remember if you have a link to it or not. If you want to check it out, let me know.

So what I discovered is a couple of things.

Functionality isn't about '/or/' it's about whether or not the power can do multiple things. Moving terrain is useful in a couple of different ways. It can move your hero from one place to another...or move an opponent out of the way...or move an object closer to you...or...or...Cards that move a hero 1 hex are the same way. Or Hera's Throw 5 hexes. It could be a curse in one situation or a boon in another. If a card gives you multiple paths of use, it is a powerful card, and that can be accomplished without an '/or/'.

Force Fumble on the other hand. Only has use in specific situations. A hero must be holding an object, and they must be in 'range' of the hero to make it happen. It has ONE function. A card that is played on Force Fumble needs to have extra stuff with it to make it useful to play. On the other hand, a fumble miracle is more useful, because heroes WILL hold onto the Godball at some point, and YOU the god get to pick where it goes, and and making them drop it so they can't score a point is a pretty big incentive.

So making sure that a card in the hand enhances the play enough to be used in several circumstances.

You need knowledge to play a card - Hera has some cards that are played without knowledge, like her 'everyone discards a card.' You don't know what your opponents have, you could be affecting them...but maybe it helps them because you can't see it. For Dionysus, that would be okay, he's going to be a pretty willy nilly kind of god anyway. But for Hera, that's not really about the scheming she has. Even for Dionysus though, the player won't want to play the card unless they know they are getting some kind of benefit from it.

For each card you need to ask, "If I don't know what's going to happen, would I play this card." Which leads to:

Incentives

It all boils down to incentives. What do I get out of playing this card? And do the card sets lend itself to promoting that kind of play with their abilities? Incidentally, this is how we can enhance the personalities of the God further. All of Athena's incentives lead you to playing gifts to create combos of hero actions. Zeus's cards are slated to direct zapping.

Poseidon is very close in this regard, his cards definitely have a 'do stuff with terrain' bend. We have to keep making sure those terrain cards are useful.

Aphrodite, too, is headed in the right direction, a lot of her cards have that 'I affect you, you affect me,' feel to them. What with her manipulating multiple heroes most of the time. We need to continue in that direction and drive the point home with more cards that have those sorts of incentives.

Hera, on the other hand, isn't that close. She's a mish-mash, because her incentives were all bent on tearing other players down. This is a mistake, because a) any time she tears someone else down, she's not helping herself, and b) that's not a ton of fun to play in a modern board game setting. She has interesting cards, (5 hex throw, the kick and slip) but she doesn't have a lot of direction into who she is. Hera, in particular, will need more thought on her set. Mike: Maybe you, with the Percy Jackson guide, have some ideas on how to rewrite her?

[Eliahad]

Mike: What happens if we switch out Artemis for Hera?

[Mike]

Then Atalanta is in. Hermes's hero switches to mountain terrain. We can rethink Calypso as Poseidon's hero.

I have more thoughts, but no time.

[Mike]

Specifically, one of our points of pride has been that each god is different. And in the pitch, Hera was sort of the badass proof-of-concept of that. She's the one we held up as really standing out. Now we probably need to lean more on Poseidon to make that case for us.

And (as we have been) we need to work hard to make sure all the sets are distinct.

Artemis is forests and beasts... she is wildlife and the hunt. She's distinct enough from the others to make a fine replacement if we choose to go that way.

[Eliahad]

Absolutely, making sure everyone is different is necessary and important. Hera is difficult to construct now. The simple fact that our "Take That" mechanics have a layer of sophistication now makes it crazy important to not fall back on 'you can't do this thing,' unless there is a very, very cool thing that goes along with it.

I have time this week, I'll take a crack at the new Hera. I just haven't found a way into her mode of thinking yet. As in, I know /what/ we need, just not how to get it.

[Eliahad]

What I want for Hera:

4 utility cards leaves 20 to play with.

I see there being 5 groups of 3 cards each.

Each group of 3 has 1 setup cards and 2 payoff cards. Each group of 3 is an echo of one of the other God's decks so that Hera can utilize their own tricks to set her up for success.

The 5 cards that are leftover can be from her repertoire of strange gifts that have great powers but also restrictions to their use, or reactions that can let heroes act out of turn in interesting ways.

[Eliahad]

I keep getting glimpses of what I want for Hera, but I haven't hit the tipping point where it bubbles out. When I get a chance to sit down and actually write out some of these ideas, I think she'll start coming together fairly quickly.

[Eliahad]

Hera's rewrite is now up in the powers playground. I went with 1 homage, 2 subversions for each other god. I'm not sure they are all immediately obvious, which is okay, I think. I'm interested to see how she plays with the new set.

There is one 'you may not do this' card...mainly her 'throw' gift that forces you to toss the ball 1 hex away from you at the cost of 1 AP. It is considered a throw, so it can't be intercepted, and you do have the choice of where you throw it to. So it's take that...ish. I think it's limiting but not necessarily canceling.

[Mike]

Agreed. It's an interesting tool to work with, and definitely limiting without crippling.

[Eliahad]

New sets are up for all three gods. Not sold on Aphrodite's set yet, but it's getting closer. Hera is a big step forward, I think, but needs playing. I'll try and get the new card sets printed and cut for my playtest this weekend.

(The playtest tonight is not happening, there's not enough time.)

[Eliahad]

Today, I'm really not sold on Aphrodite's card set. Mike, do you have a little time to look at it today? I'll poke at it when I have some time later.

[Mike]

Been looking already.

So far, I'm good with it. We need to test. But im still going.

[Eliahad]

Okay, cool. Those multiple cost actions are weird ing me out a little, I think.