[MEOW] Ronin

[Kyle]

This is the discussion thread for the All New Nerd Pride Radio Movie of the Every Other Week!

This thread is only for those who have seen the movie recently. Commentary from people who haven't seen it will be deleted.

This Every Other Weeks Movie: Ronin, selected by buckett

WARNING- ALL SPOILERS FOR THIS MOVIE ARE ALLOWED! For real, if you haven't seen it, don't read any further!

Discuss!

[Tahlvin]

This has been on my To Watch list for awhile, but just hadn’t gotten around to it before now. You’ve got Jean Reno, Sean Bean, Stellan Skarsgard, DeNiro, Jonathan Pryce, and Natascha McElhone. I really enjoyed it.

The one thing that bugs me with these movies is the wrong way car chase. In reality, they’d never get that far going that fast without having a catastrophic collision. But I’m not letting that get in the way too much of enjoying the movie. Otherwise, I enjoyed the mix of action and intrigue.

[Mike]

I've seen this movie at least four times now, and was afraid it wouldn't hold up. But I was wrong! I still enjoyed the shit out of it. Deniro was in top form. All the acting was strong. I just had a blast. I love heists. I love all the planning. I love how smart Deniro is through the whole thing. Look, I'm no film expert, but I know what I like. And this is it. I feel like Deniro's Sam is the last of an age of action heroes that were replaced by Jason Bourne and a new age of greater-than-human action heroes.

First complaint: car chase too long. Not horrible, but it coulda been shorter.

Second complaint: The connection between Sam and Deirdre was completely unearned. Leave aside the Bechdel test and the fact that she was a token woman whose sole purpose was as a love interest (term used very loosely) for our male lead, the movie did nothing to establish this relationship. He was an asshole to her every time they talked business (and he avoided any subject that wasn't business), and then they screwed on a stakeout. THAT was the sum total of their relationship, and from that, she KNOWS he will throw aside his professionalism for her and won't shoot her in spite of every evidence that she betrayed him. It was weak. The connection between Sam and Vincent made far more sense. If they got to the end of the movie and all the evidence said Vincent betrayed him but Sam let him go anyway? Yeah, that I would have believed. Deirdre was just lazily written, even for a mainstream 90s film.

But leaving that aside, I still thoroughly enjoyed this watch, and I'd watch it again if the opportunity arose.

[Kyle]

I get Mike's issue with the under-representation of women. This is something that's been bothering me recently as I've tried watching everything Scorsese directs-- very testosterone heavy. It's a legitimate criticism.

That aside- I loved this movie so much. All of you complaining about the car chases are crazy. More chases! Longer chases! More unrealistic physics in the chases! I loved every second of them, however, I did have a podcast dedicated to the Fast and the Furious franchise. So I might be biased.

Deniro is so good in this. Everyone was. I like how all the "pros" were these bottled-up, controlled personalities, but the amateur (Sean Bean) is just a psycho phony. I also liked the Predator-approach to these characters: no back story, no reason to establish who they are or why they're there. We just start with them and what little we actually learn about them is pieced out organically through the movie.

This movie made me realize how much I miss spy movies.

[Zombie]

I'm with Kyle on this one. How can you hate on the car chase? Throwback to French Connection style car chases and it still rules. This was one of my favorites in high school, but I hadn't watched it since. Happy it was just as entertaining as I remember. Cast is great. Jean Reno was killing it in the 90s.

Funny, this was considered a return to form for the director, John Frankenheimer, who had a string of quality movies in the 60s. Two years after, he made the incredibly memeable with Ben Afleck. If you haven't seen that movie, the most memorable line is: "I want some hot chocolate, and some pecANN pie." (emphasis added).

Needless to say, he hasn't directed anything since.

[Kyle]

[Zombie]

[Kyle]

[Eliahad]

[Kyle]

[buckett]

11/10 car chases (Ronin actually makes the reverse chase work, since the speed of the chases always feels realistic in this one), 10/10 cast. 6/10 overly convoluted MacGuffin pursuit, but it all works in service of setting up the chases and the shifting loyalties.

I think McElhone's character and performance is pretty badass and even if the romance is definitely a bit undercooked, I don't think it's fair to her or the movie to call her a token woman (and I certainly don't find it a fair criticism of Scorsese, but that's another discussion).

I do think it was a little bit of a missed opportunity not to go into more detail on the nihilistic post-Cold-war politics, which is kind of alluded to with the opening discussion of their previous allegiances but never really explored, and makes the actual "Ronin" comparisons fall a little flat, but I'm mostly nitpicking, because those car chases man and De Niro, Reno, McElhone, Skarsgaard, AND Pryce all rule. Sean Bean is actually too good in his characteristically brief appearance such that it feels like kind of a waste. Great experience - holds up!

[Mike]

[buckett]

We will just have to agree to disagree. The romance (which again, I agree is shoddily written and easily the film's biggest flaw) is such an afterthought I don't see it at all as her only purpose, or even her primary one, especially considering she kicks off the entire plot by getting the gang together and righteously taking the piss out of everyone. After that, she's a co-equal part of the crew who holds her own in every chase and fight scene. And to that point, she's no more or less underdeveloped than any one of them besides De Niro; she's not really sexualized, she's a total consummate pro and working stiff just doing her handlers' bidding like literally everyone else, and probably my favorite non-chase/action scene was her justifiably telling Seamus off and calling him a coward for making them do all his dirty work. So even her final decision to me reads to me just as much as solidarity with her fellow foot soldiers than anything.

I would say it even as a 1998 film it holds up just fine in comparison to any modern day Bond, MI, F&F, etc. female action characters; certainly nothing in this felt as lame and stereotypical to me as Lily James' eyelash-batting worship of a total charisma zero like Ansel Elgort in Baby Driver. If we want to have a larger discussion about how it's lame that Hollywood in general as an industry doesn't greenlight more female-led action movies, or more female-led narratives in general, I'm 1000% in agreement, but I'm not convinced as applied individually to this movie, besides shoehorning in the romance angle, which again, still applies to many, many, many, many movies.