Trump

[Tahlvin]

And how f’d up is our infrastructure that Dominos Pizza has a marketing campaign about fixing potholes?!

[Phoebe]

Where I live I am pretty sure a dark cabal of auto repair shops has colluded with the mayor and city council to ensure that no adequate repairs are done. I like to browse on google maps street view and roam about the earth in different places for fun, and I am hard pressed to find any place, among those with paved roads, where the roads looked worse than they do in my local area. I have seen dirt roads in rural Indonesia and South Africa I'd rather take my chances on, than the average grocery store outing here. Meanwhile, the interstate is polished like a diamond of smooth perfection despite our "challenging" 4 season weather. Thanks, Obama.

[Phoebe]

[buckett]

[FlameBlade]

Which is worse, denying people's humanity, or denying the humanity of those who denies the humanity in others?

I realize that there's a slight contradiction in mathematical construct of this, but just bringing it up for food for thought.

Another food for thought:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance

[Mike]

I agree that the business had the right to do this.

In my personal opinion, Sanders "deserves" this sort of treatment as much as anyone. I do not in any way feel sorry for her.

Given all of that, I still see this as counterproductive. It is trading hate for hate. It changes no one except in the sense of cementing and widening the divide between sides. This gives a chance to cheer on the left and use it to confirm the hypocrisy of the right. At the same time, this confirms many of the horrible things the right feels about the left and justifies their continued use of hate tactics.

One of the best things I learned from Defensive Driving class: who cares that you had the right of way if you still end up dead?

[FlameBlade]

Still, philosophically, how do you teach others that yeah, there are consequences to the actions they just took. Especially when those "others" are the people who have truly never experienced consequences?

[Mike]

If we approach this from the angle of retribution and teaching the other side a lesson, then I feel like we're playing a losing game.

Science shows us that confronting someone and telling them they are wrong (even if you have facts to prove it), only causes them to become even more entrenched in defending those beliefs. So clearly, refusing SHS service didn't teach her or her defenders anything. It was an action whose sole benefit is making her opponents feel righteous and justified. It feels good, but it's just not productive.

I think the suggestion above of taking the high road and letting her know all proceeds from her meal would be donated to a cause counter to her agenda was a good one. It doesn't change her mind or teach her a lesson, but it highlights the difference in goals and methods and maybe influences those on the outside wondering which path is for them.

[Phoebe]

What Mike said about driving is my Dad's driving motto as well, oft-repeated in different contexts. As a matter of political tactics, I agree with Mike. Sarah Sanders is a moral and ethical degenerate of the first class, but it is unlikely she is going to learn that even if most of the nation rises up to condemn her dishonesty and the administration's terrible policies. The goal for most of us who don't know her is not to fix her warped soul; the goal is to neutralize or reverse the violent and cruel government actions she supports.

One of the things I often get a chance to talk with people about very frankly is, when have they changed their mind about a matter of great import, a core personal belief, a political conviction, etc. The answer is pretty simple and nearly universal, save for those few kindred robots who like to examine and weigh evidence: they were swayed by human beings they knew and respected, and their feelings and emotions shifted for different reasons. This is why non-violent direct action doesn't depend on people understanding the presentation of evidence for its effectiveness; NVDA requires creating a crisis of sorts on the political stage or in the hearts of the public, as they shrink from confronting the reality of injustice they're helping to perpetrate, and thus force a change of course. Kind of like the civil rights movement didn't flip a switch in people to realize racism was morally wrong, but they did feel like they didn't want to be the kind of people on the other end of the firehoses and dogs and screaming hatemongers, so they had to demand something else.

Kicking Sanders out of a restaurant is one of those many places where praise and blame for actions don't necessarily run parallel to the actions one would recommend as best. I would praise and not blame the restaurant for standing up for their conviction that discrimination is unacceptable, but politically it's a lot more effective to publicize the fact that LGBTQ people have to serve people like Sanders every day, even as people like Sanders think it should be okay to refuse them service in return. She can reconcile that shit with God; she knows very well the lies she is telling, and like all liars of her sort she's a psychological mess inside. I wouldn't wish that on my enemy.

[poorpete]

Nix the swear words and other small edits and this is a top notch letter to the editor.

[FlameBlade]

Is it entirely possible that far right elements are taking advantage of the fact that we're taking high road? If so, what is the defense? Continue taking high road?

[FlameBlade]

[FlameBlade]

Building on that more. Is Trumpism a thing to be reasoned in civilizing way? I think there needs to be some strong resistance, but reasonable one, especially since whataboutism is quite toxic. The answer is often, what about now, and what you are doing about it right now?

By the way, in case you thought EO does something.

It doesn't. It just punt the can in 3 weeks, and families will be separated again. Also zero plans for reunification.

According to international law, family separation is a form of genocide.

Trump has tweeted that he doesn't want judges for immigrants.

I will point out a very simple case...US citizen gets swept up. Got documents stripped. Get deported because of no backstop by the judges.

All of those sounds extreme, but within realm of possible.

[Bonefish]

I kind of feel like this like one of those little russian nesting dolls, except instead of being smaller and cuter, each new level is more grotesque and obscene. And there's a lot of people just hop-skipping-and-jumping along.

[Phoebe]

Seeing a lot of discussion roll past elsewhere about Civility as a strategy of resistance vs. total failure in the effort to stave off looming fascism.

Before people can have that discussion, I feel the base-level recognition required is that our current government functions almost entirely as a cabal of 4chan trolls. Stephen Miller doesn't just GO to a Mexican restaurant the same week Sarah Sanders does for no reason; they both go because they want to cast themselves in the Victim role and make every old duffer in middle America identify fully with the prospect of simply wanting a taco while feeling vaguely threatened by speech made in another language. This is the red meat for their base; this is The Reason why they are sitting in the White House today, otherwise known as "economic anxiety", and they desperately need to switch the public narrative back to this channel and away from "you are cruel, terrifying, lawless kidnappers of people's innocent children and we want no part of it!"

As I see it, the job of every person who loves democracy and loves America is to make sure that they aren't allowed to switch the station back to "White People Victims" from "White People Terrorizing Immigrants In A Manner That Even White People Find Horrifying, Because It Is". If extending civility achieves that end, then good. If civility talks two voters back off the ledge from an impending leap into full embrace of fascism or authoritarian government, then good. I try to make it a point to talk one person down per day and get another young person to register to vote. I could impact hundreds before the election if I just stick to it, and I'm not really trying hard at this, I have other things to do.

[mimekiller]

A cool thing about the Supreme Court is that Obama had the political power to pack it with progressives in 2009 and chose not to and now is making millions upon millions of dollars in the private sector now and speaking out about nothing. Well, bye!

https://www.cnn.com/politics/live-news/ ... index.html

[Phoebe]

False
False
True but why is that bad?
Aaaaand False!

[mimekiller]

obama had the political hubris to believe he was ushering in a generation-long progressive revolution and didn't take advantage of the power he had to ensure Americans wouldn't be fucked after he ran out his 8 years on the clock

[FlameBlade]

[bralbovsky]

Obama's failure began when he decided not to send Cheney to the Hague. The evidence was there, and Blackwater, and all of it...I just can't right now. There was an opening to expose all of it. Would it have been ugly, yup. Would there have been pushback, yup. Is it possible there would have been only one term? So what? Gotta give him that he tried. He tried a decade of never being angry, of staying cool, of being 'not-too-dark,' 'well-spoken' and educated, of showing up with a tie and his little family and no scandals or outbursts. It didn't seem to make the fifth of the country soften one bit. They ground their teeth the whole time.
So after nearly a decade of civility, we get this, that looks very deeply like the beginning of the end in an existential way.

I would advocate instead TR, but the congress and the courts refuse to do their jobs, so no stick.

Speak civilly, but explain that "we only speak Spanish in my restaurant, except when we offer you Jocasta's Special. Let me explain how that's prepared...oh wait, the chef informs me that we're all out..."

There is a demographic, mostly pretty easy to identify in conversation, that won't be convinced by civility. That won't ever stop being afraid of the African neighbor, even after he has a stroke. That won't ever let go of their cowardice and complacency and, let's call it what it is, greed. Ya, Ayn Rand. Adolescent logic. I'm frankly tired of being patient with them. I don't know how to make them grow up. It has come to me that Mueller won't matter to them either. I doubt whether video of T actually shooting some old, possibly ethnic, possibly just poor, woman on Fifth Avenue, blood everywhere, crying grandchildren in stereo would wake them up.