New Pathfinder?

[Phoebe]

I am told, in my workplace of all places, that there is some kind of new Pathfinder version coming. Is this a good thing and something I want? Should I be downloading this?

[DMDarcs]

Jeff's the best one to ask. He's been walking through the swamp that is the Paizo comments so you don't have to!

[El Jefe]

Yes, there's a new edition coming. Likely in late summer 2019.

What Darcs is referring to (and what I'd guess you're hearing about) is the fact that Paizo is going to be releasing a Playtest version of the new edition in August 2018. You can get the PDFs for free at that point, and run games to provide playtest feedback to Paizo for roughly six to eight months. This will likely have direct impact on what the new edition looks like when released the following year.

So what's the new edition look like? Well, the first answer is simple: nothing like what the Paizo forums would have you believe, which of course, is pretty much the Apocalypse. (It's been so long since I've been a part of edition wars.) The real answer is complicated, and utterly incomplete until the playtest PDFs are released in August. There are two or three blogs a week until then, and they've started to give a picture of how things will look different.

I'll drop another post to give a general overview of some of the changes. It's best to go read the blogs yourself (and avoid the fuck out of the forums) if you want to get a better picture. And I'll try to remember to drop back and check for questions, but I can't guarantee it. I honestly wouldn't have seen this, as I really don't check in here anymore, unless somebody hadn't pinged me about it.

[Cazmonster]

Here's the big question, do you want to play pathfinder because pathfinder is good? Go for it.

There are other fantasy games that you can use to tell the same stories that will cost you less money. I'm picking up Dungeon World soon and will get a review up here for it (because I really need to get back into tabletop gaming somehow). There's Tiny Dungeon where the rules will fit on one double sided sheet of legal paper.

Do you want to use it because it has lots of setting pieces and adventures already in print? Great.

Just know why you want to do what you're doing.

[El Jefe]

Major changes

1. Classes are moving to be a bit more freeform, less front-loaded, and better able to handle play at all levels (rather than the usual 1-12 best fit in PF1). Paizo never really liked prestige classes, and had serious issues with the multi-class dipping prevalent throughout much of their online community. So they're trying to rebalance that. The best way to describe it in broad strokes is that what were class features in PF1 will now be handled via class feats in the playtest. So, for example, instead of a fighter getting bravery at level 1, and then weapon and armor groups in the first few levels, they've expanded those options and made them truly optional. You'll get class feats every other level (I think), and be better able to build your fighter to be closer to the type of fighter you want.

2. Feats are everything now. Before you had things like rogue talents, alchemist discoveries, ranger combat style feats, and so on. There are general feats, skill feats, class feats, and even racial feats to replace the old feats, skill ranks, class features, and racial traits. You get certain ones at particular levels, and overall get WAY more feats. It appears, at a glance, that your character tends to get less generalized abilities and a more specific build to fit the character concept you have. Not so much everybody being a specialist, just everybody being more focused on their particular concept. This is harder to explain without spending four pages to do it.

3. Goblins are going to be a core rulebook race now. This is apparently a BIG PROBLEM, because people view monster races as one dimensional and honestly don't read Golarion's actual setting material. It's also a problem, because apparently being in the core rulebook means something more than...being in the core rulebook?

4. Alchemists got a huge overhaul, and no longer simply cast "alchemy" versions of arcane and divine spells. They look pretty damn cool. Alchemists will now be a core rulebook class as well (along with the other expected standards: Fighter, Rogue, Wizard, Sorcerer, Monk, Barbarian, Paladin, Ranger, Druid, Bard, and Cleric).

5. Skill ranks are gone. They're going to a level-based proficiency system. It sounds unique enough, but it does definitely sound like it has some overtones of the flat proficiency bonus found in D&D 4th and 5th. It looks like each class (and possibly race) will give a few skills and weapon types you'll start with levels of proficiency in. You'll gain more at various levels (see skill feats above). Those proficiency levels will range from Untrained (-2 to checks) up through Legendary (+3 to checks), 5 in total I think (Untrained, Trained, Expert, Master, and Legendary).

6. To go along with the skill changes mentioned above, the base assumption for die rolls is totally different. Basically, every single d20 check you'll make (whether it be skill checks, attack rolls, saving throws, caster checks...whatever) will now be d20 + total character level + relevant proficiency bonus + ability modifier (where applicable) + various other as yet unknown modifiers. This now allows for more customization in rolls. Since everything uses the same system, you can do cool thinks like allow a very acrobatic fighter with a high acrobatics skill but low Reflex save to try and use acrobatics to make a saving throw against a fireball. This lets you do things like sub in skills for attack rolls, so you might be able to now make an Intimidate check instead of a CMB check (which no longer exists) for something like a bull rush or overrun.

7. The whole action economy is changed. Instead of the whole free/swift/move/standard/full of the past, everybody simply gets 3 actions and 1 reaction per turn. This means you could now move up to three times. Move, attack once, then move. Cast a spell that takes 2 actions and then still move once. Combat will likely be a lot more mobile now (less stand next to enemy and full attack). Outside of spells and special abilities, this means the most anyone can attack in a single turn is 3 times, and each has drastically increasing penalties.

8. Critical hits and failures are no longer just 1 and 20. If you meet (or miss) your DC by 10 or more, it's now also a critical hit or miss. So if you attack somebody with AC 15, roll d20+10, and roll a 15 or higher, it is now a critical hit. Same goes for saving throws, skill checks, and lots of other things. Most critical fails are just standard fails, but there are exceptions here (particularly with the old save or suck / save or die spells).

9. Spells now go from level 1 to 10. No more details on this yet, but apparently, that DOESN'T include cantrips.

10. Race was replaced with ancestry, heritage, and backgrounds. Not a lot of details on this yet (just 2 short blogs). Basically, it looks like you'll pick an ancestry (actual physical or genetic starting source, what previous editions used as race) and then a heritage (culture, society, or environment you were raised in). So in theory, it sounds like this will allow you to do more with ancestry. You don't need to exclusively be a beardy dwarf with axes, hammers, and lives in mountains. It sounds much like what alternate racial traits let you do in PF1, but with more flexibility and impact via feats.

11. Hit Points per level are a flat, max number now, no more rolling Hit Dice. You'll also get Hit Points from your ancestry as well, at least to start. This is similar to Starfinder.

12. Level increases will be similar, but not the same as Starfinder. So instead of ability scores going up +1 every 4 levels like in PF1, it will be more like SF (four increases of +2 every 5th level).

13. They're drastically changing magic items, to avoid the Big 6 problems. Goodbye belts of bullshittery, cloaks of fucking annoyance, and rings of please end the numbers madness, and the magic item shop treadmill. Magic weapons are pretty terrifying now, as a +1 longsword will no longer have a +1 to damage and attack. It will have a +1 to attack AND do an entire extra die of weapon damage. So if a +3 longsword normally did 1d8+3+STR in PF1, it sounds like it will now do 4d8+STR in PF2. Item slots are gone now, and you will just track whether an item is worn or not.

15. There's going to be a pool based system of magic item limitations called Resonance. Nowhere near enough details on this yet. But it sounds like you'll need to spend points daily for consumables (like wands or staves), rather than use charges. And something like using a point of Resonance each day to have permanent magic items linked to you. Again, not enough details here yet.

16. BAB is gone. Everybody simply adds level to attack now. So all classes start with the same baseline for combat. Proficiencies (as noted above) and class feats will determine the actual difference between particular characters get in terms of bonuses ore penalties to that. There's a theory that level is also getting added to saving throws and AC, but I have real doubts on that yet. Partial level may make sense there.

17. Ancestries confirmed for the Playtest are Elf, Dwarf, Half-Orc (stupidly, it sounds like they're keeping the sexual assault angle with its creation), Gnome, Half-Elf, Human, Goblin, Halfling, and something else I'm totally spacing on right now.

There's a ton more tiny bits and pieces I can cover. But I'm tired. I'll drop any others I think of later.

[El Jefe]

[Cazmonster]

Not having to track the cost of a wand or a staff in a treasure hoard? JOY

I like PF2. I don't know that I'll buy it, but I like it.

[Phoebe]

WOW, thanks for the summary! It is unfortunate that you don't check in more often here. Anyway, there's at least one or two changes I'm not thrilled about but everything else sounds kind of awesome or at least worth checking out. Anyone want to try it when the PDFs are released?

3. Goblins: for Gogmurt!

4. Alchemists will now be a core rulebook class: Awesome! Nellah we hardly knew ye!

5. Skill ranks are gone: Awesome!

7. The whole action economy is changed: AMEN!!!!!!!!!!!! This is so great for people like me who just can't ever figure out what the hell they're able to do in a single turn no matter how many times it's explained.

8. Critical hits and failures are no longer just 1 and 20.
This is the one thing that worries me the most, especially if it's combined with a proliferation of feats. There's already such a tendency to build up on critical boosts and this is only going to encourage it further, and maybe make it more likely that critical blows or whiffs decide battles, which I do not like.

10. Race was replaced with ancestry, heritage, and backgrounds: Awesome!!! A long overdue and much appreciated change.

11. Hit Points per level are a flat, max number now, no more rolling Hit Dice: Boo. ??? Not a big deal but I'm not sure I like this idea. I'm one of those weirdos who invests in Constitution so that I can boost my HP each round and become a big old tank, a strategy I might add is serving well right now with Dwyn.

13. Goodbye belts of bullshittery, cloaks of fucking annoyance, and rings of please end the numbers madness:
Well that sucks, because I've already got the two former and would really really really like to have the latter item. On the other hand, I like the idea that magic weapons are getting a big boost to damage, which makes it worth the huge investment you put into them.

16. BAB is gone. Everybody simply adds level to attack now.
Weird. There's not a lot of incentive to be a fighter sometimes, and the loss of this seems to further deincentivize it.

17. Ancestries confirmed for the Playtest are Elf, Dwarf, Half-Orc (stupidly, it sounds like they're keeping the sexual assault angle with its creation):
On the one hand I see why that is a problem, but on the other hand sexual assault is a normal feature of the world. The part that sucks is that it would be attached to the origin story of one ancestry rather than another. Everybody's ancestry has an encounter with this, I imagine.

[El Jefe]

[El Jefe]

Let's actually ignore most of what I said before. Because I'm making the same mistake here that the Paizo forumites are making regarding the playtest.

We're talking about seeing maybe a dozen or so total pages via scattered previews, out of a 500 or so page rulebook for the Playtest (along with supporting bestiary, adventure, etc.). So it's way, way too early to try and break down individual points until we've got those 500 pages in hand. And while I do enjoy doing the theory-crafting talk, it needs to be with about twenty huge containers of salt.

Here's a better way to answer Phoebe's initial post. Why should you be interested or excited in a potential new version of Pathfinder? I'll give you my Top 5.

1. Paizo wants to build a system with core, unified mechanics that encourage flexibility. At the most basic level, that's exactly what the proficiency/level modifier system allows them to do. You no longer need to worry about flat-footed AC being different from touch AC, or CMB being on a different scale from BAB, and all that being different from the numbers used to pull off a feint in combat via the Bluff skill. Having a unified mechanic opens up future design space with later books, while avoiding a number of the issues that PF1 has with chasing your next "+1 to X." They want to not have unnecessary additional classes and allow base classes to be flexible via class feats and archetypes. I think those are pretty worthy design goals.

2. They want to update combat to reflect a more modern design approach. In PF1, you are almost always mechanically better served by simply dealing more damage. This leads to real problem spots. Your cleric or healer of various types is generally better served to simply take enemies down faster, rather than stopping to provide healing in-combat to allies who aren't already down and dying. Your martial types will have far more impact by ignoring combat maneuvers and simply not move, allowing for constant full attacks. Combat becomes locked down with limited mobility, characters pursue ever increasing flat damage modifiers, and character builds in general focus in on a much more limited number of paths. Even though PF1 has an absolute huge amount of material to avoid that limited focus, too many of those options suffer from feat taxes or outright worse mechanical performance than the "same old, same old." It's also very difficult to allow martials to do what they really want to do. Try actively creating a front line of combat and holding it, not allowing enemies past. Because you want your ranged and spell support to be safe, right? Yeah, doing that in PF1 is a gigantic mess. Much of the class feats and skill unlocks (via proficiency levels) will allow for PF2 to approach combat with an eye towards creating a very dynamic, mobile narrative. Hell, the action economy along changes combat DRASTICALLY. (See footnote 1 below.)

3. PF1 is effectively a redesign of 3.0. Sure, there are a pretty large number of tweaks, but you can still see huge chunks of the original under the surface. That's not a bad thing on its own. But that places the system at 18 years old for its core, and just over a decade for Pathfinder itself. Eventually, every system is going to just reach a point of age catching up. The system will be come too bloated with additional material, losing its focus, or any other number of problems. Just look at the SRD now. It is outright overwhelming. It's not hard to see that being a problem right now with PF1. And here's the great part of a new edition: PF1 doesn't die. You still have the better part of 20 years of Adventure Path material to play through. You still have tens of thousands of words devoted to prestige classes, Golarion's setting, additional classes and archetypes, and no joke, something nearing 1,000 modules between PF adventures and Society modules. PF2, if it isn't for you, doesn't impact that in the least. Paizo has already said that no changes are planned for the OGL and SRD policy regarding PF1. So you get a new game you may like, other players get a game with a different design and focus, new folks get a fresh starting point, and you lose nothing in the end. Very few edition changes have been this beneficial to all segments of the fanbase.

4. The change in magic item creation (and as a result, magic items themselves) from 2nd to 3rd edition, and then from 3.x to PF1, made the "Magic-Mart" and the Gear Treadmill a real problem. The whole CR system was built on the assumption that the Big 6 items were baked right into that system (cloaks of resistance, rings of protection, amulets of natural armor, the belts of stat boost, the headbands of stat boost, and whatever the hell the 6th is that I keep forgetting, probably weapons and armor). That meant that foes were built with those numbers in mind, that APs were built to provide the necessary gear, and that Wealth By Level became a lot more important to follow. So if you do not pursue those bonuses, the players and GM will begin to encounter real issues post level 10. 3rd edition mitigated this somewhat by CR being slightly different, and requiring XP to be spent for magic items. This kept the Magic-Mart somewhat restricted. PF1 did away with that XP requirement...and the floodgates were opened. The chase for the next +X became baked into the very bones of encounter creation and adventure design. PF2 wants to put more of those bonuses directly into characters, rather than their items (see Starfinder style level-ups, proficiency levels, etc.) This lets magic items move back to mattering. When you get a cool cloak of Shadow Blending now, you're not actively hurting future growth by using that cloak rather than the Cloak of Resistance +3. This is a huge step towards making Pathfinder feel like it is high-fantasy again, rather than wargaming combat simulator that it can fall into too easily in PF1. I want a character to decide if they leap 40 feet in the air to slash at the flying dragon because of their bloodline being descended from Titans, their Boots of Airy Step covered in eldritch runes and precious gemstone dust, or simply because they just dug deep in their guts and TRAINED THAT DAMN HARD. That's exactly what PF2 is looking to do with the mix of level-ups and eliminating the need for the Big 6.

5. Levels beyond 10 become a real struggle if you're not extremely careful in PF1. PF2 wants folks to feel free to run the whole gambit from 1 to 20 and still have a blast. They want to do this so much, they've noted that their plan for PF2 Adventure Paths is to focus on tales that go from 1 to 20 (where PF1 APs typically end somewhere between 12 and 15). There's a whole lot of reasons for these problems in PF1. First, too many spells and magic items completely invalidate and overwhelm other non-caster class abilities (or even other caster class abilities). There's little value in a character focusing on the Heal skill, because wands of CLW are so cheap, available, and easy to make. Hell, why have a cleric or oracle at all? And if you do have one...why bothering going the route of a mendicant or traveling healer? Oh, and the ability for arcane casters to completely avoid any need for things like trapfinding and balanced skill specialities (who needs Stealth? We've got Improved Invis and Silence. And these will literally be mechanically better than any party can ever get, as an average, for Stealth). Don't even get me started on the utter uselessness of Knowledge skill checks. The ways in which you can bypass this with ridiculously low level spells is beyond frustrating. So anything that helps to bridge the caster/non divide at higher levels, as well as making caster actually feel unique again? That's a good thing.

The second part is easier. Moving away from front-loaded classes allows the game to move back to an easier to parse system with levels grouped into narrative tiers. As campaigns move on, you'll truly feel like every single class and character at 15th level looks back on 5th level and sees how far they've come. It'll serve to showcase the uber or superhuman nature of those 20th level characters. We're talking about folks who can square off against demon lords who hold a measure of divinity. This also means that you can build classes to truly feel unique. No more adding a new class and say "Just use this other classes spell list." You can build spell lists, class abilities, and others all the way up and down the chain to showcase that particular class. The design space is opened up in ways that PF1 hasn't been able to do in quite a number of years.

Footnote 1 - My favorite answer to "Why PF2?" comes from the fighter preview. By 6th level in PF2, a human sword and board fighter can do the following in a single round.

1. Make an attack with their main weapon (1 action). Assume they drop their target, and see that another foe is moving in to attack their wizard in the back ranks.
2. Move once up to 25 feet (1 action) without triggering AoOs when they fall back. They are now next to the wizard and the foe.
3. Ready their shield in a defensive posture (1 action).
4. As a reaction, when the enemy attacks the wizard, they defend (1 reaction). The attack no longer hits the wizard, but hits the fighter instead. Additionally, the fighter gets to reduce any damage from a successful attack by the value of their shield's hardness and several class abilities. They may very well completely eliminate the damage, though their shield will now have a reduced function until it is repaired.

In PF1, this required at least 4 feats and 8th level. In PF2, this requires 2 and 6th level. You also couldn't reduce the damage of attacks with shields very easily in PF1. Neither could you decide on the fly to use that prepared shield to absorb an attack, protect an ally, or even keep an enemy from moving past you. That fighter also could have charged 50 feet, done an attack, and then still used the shield as an emergency measure to absorb an attack. Or moved, attacked, then moved again. And so on. All of these would have likely required more feats and higher levels in PF1 to make this possible...if it even was.

[Phoebe]

I think you're right not to jump into breaking down details before the details are determined, but overall I like the idea that this might be solving some of the problems I perceive in playing a Fighter relative to other classes, so it's encouraging. Some of the other changes you mentioned are really good in general even if we don't yet know how they will play out. Predict Paizo will continue winning with this new one. Still want to play Starfinder but it is hard because there's about a six week window every year when life is normal and calm enough to permit such things. I've started to realize my best bet for doing this is with the players I grew myself, but not only do they want to escape the vat often enough to interfere, but the whole dynamic is different and challenging as opposed to playing with a bunch of like-minded friends who share your basic approach to Fun RPG. Case in point: the home-grown players are still screwing around in Sandpoint and nearly incapable of the level of functioning that will be needed to deal with goblin encounters. Basically expecting that they will decide to join the band of pyromaniacs. Nothing can be predicted.

[El Jefe]

There's a side point to this that I should mention.

It looks like PF2 is changing some basic assumptions about player characters as well. And that is the place that I think you'll find the greatest disagreement or sense of disconnect between the two versions.

In PF1, if you've got a 20th level cleric, with a 10 STR and no ranks in the Climb skill, you will have a very difficult time managing to climb up a tree (DC 15), without resorting to magic. This is someone who can literally square off against near-divine demon lords, someone for whom many eldritch horrors out of Lovecraft are the level equivalent of goblins (shoggoths, gugs, Hounds of Tintalos, etc.). Someone who presumably has spent years in the field can't accomplish what a level 1 commoner can with relative ease. That's one the base assumptions of PF1. There will be huge variation between trained and untrained at higher levels. You can very easily have a difference of +25 or more between a level 20 stealth rogue and level 20 fighter (even with a respectable amount of ranks in Stealth, let alone untrained). Untrained will not be able to accomplish very basic tasks. This can cause a lot of issues when it comes to skills like Stealth, limiting party options drastically, even among a party of what are ostensibly veteran soldiers and campaigners. This also means that DCs need to continually escalate unnaturally, if you want to keep level appropriate skill challenges. That doesn't make this design choice wrong, by the way. It's the style of 3.x, and PF continued it.

PF2 (using the proficiency system) works off a different base assumption. So every skill check will add level to a roll, and your training level (proficiency) will only provide a bonus between -2 to +3. So there's a degree of bounded accuracy built in (though not quite the same as 4E/5E's bounded accuracy). So looking at a similar comparison (level 20 fighter/level 20 rogue) under PF2, you're likely going to see a difference closer to roughly +14 on the high end between trained and untrained. This means the level 20 fighter can accomplish relatively simple, common tasks for a veteran (DC 10/15 climbing a tree or creeping across a field under a starless sky at night) that would have been very risky for the same character to do under PF1. You're assumed to have a base level of competence in many skills as time goes on, regardless of whether you are trained or not. The higher level proficiencies (Expert, Master, and Legendary) will likely begin to unlock abilities that are more superhuman. An example give was that even though the Swim skill modifier could be the same between an untrained Fighter and a master trained Rogue at level 10, the master trained Rogue would have a swim speed by default. That means the Fighter would need to make Swim checks as usual on the open sea, while the rogue just tools along without a care in the world. So same skill check modifier, but very different end results.

This difference lies at the core of the prociency system in PF2. It will be the biggest change for PF1 fans need to face (and decide if it works for them). Especially as proficiency training is now going to apply to things like saving throws, weapon and armor proficiency, and possibly even spellcasting. I'm a fan of it, because I like that your skill modifier isn't the end-all, be-all. I also like it, because it opens up the design space. Hate playing a wizard that is stuck with wooden staves and no armor? Don't want a whole new class like the magus? Great, use a few of your feats to get some armor and weapon proficiencies. Want a rogue who likes to smash people in the face with a two-handed maul? Go for it.

[Phoebe]

I'm of mixed minds about this. I like the idea that someone could be incredibly expert in one thing and still absolutely novice in another. On the other hand, one of the weirdest things about RPG campaigns that is certainly true of Runelords is that you ramp up these people in a few months from zero to 9000, so maybe it's not so odd that as their powers increase, they would increase in a generalized fashion. As you say, anything that "opens up the design space" is also a win imo.

[El Jefe]

[Phoebe]

[Cazmonster]

I don't wanna go to the other forum, it's sounds scary. Can you give us more about why you're unhappy with Paladins?

I wanna be a Paladin.

[Cazmonster]

https://www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder2e/

[El Jefe]

Sorry, just saw this folks. I'll catch up with questions here sometime today. I've got my thoughts on the Monster blog to get up as well (almost, but not quite, 100% positive).

[El Jefe]

[El Jefe]