Guns

[Mike]

Question for Bonefish, but anyone is welcome to join.

I am starting from the facts that gun deaths in the U.S. are far higher per capita than any other developed nation in all categories. In fact, among developed nations, our overall murder rate is over two-and-a-half times the 2nd place nation (Belgium).

The rate of accidental gun death in the U.S. is twice that of any other developed nation.

Suicide rates in the U.S. are comparable to those of other nations so I am not immediately on board with the idea that the ready availability of guns increases the suicide rate. It seems like a reasonable thing to assume, but I'm not going to.

I'm also not creating a separate category for mass shootings. Overall, those numbers are small and sensationalistic. I'm lumping them in with overall murders.

Also a fact, but not connecting it to anything, gun ownership in the U.S. is crazy high. We have far more guns per person than any other nation on earth.

So given the above, my premise is that the rate of gun murders and accidental gun deaths in this country is a serious problem, and something should be done about it.

Bonefish... knowing your staunch defense of gun rights, A] do any of my facts (or my basic premise) need fixing or updating, in your opinion? and B] assuming you agree that something could/should be done, what concrete actions do you think are worth exploring (and by whom)?

[Mike]

Also, I just saw you "improved background checks" in the other thread. Who would you limit?

[Bonefish]

What's the criteria for "developed". I would argue that our high income disparity, badly leveraged labor, and, lack of social support networks make it odd for us to get lumped in with countries like Germany or Belgium. I also think ignoring our absolutely massive participation in the drug trade, which contributes to world leading violence rates in Latin America is something absolutely MUST be considered.

I also think that the focus on gun deaths alone is misleading. Our homicide rate, when we strictly talk about gun deaths, looks insane. But then when we look at overall homicides, we are much more in line with Europe. We would be one of the more dangerous European countries, but not THE most dangerous (Estonia... We are looking at you). We average around 4 point something homicides per capita, and Europe averages around 3.o. So we are not really that bad off.

And don't worry about gun ownership rates. The correlation there with gun homicides is strong: more guns means more gun homicides. But in terms of overall homicides, none of the top 20 gun owning states are in the top 100 for international homicide rates. Except the US, who ranks 94th.

[Bonefish]

People with violent backgrounds. I am not sure if I wanna say convictions or just charges. But, well, an excellent example: George fucking Zimmerman should not be able to have a gun.

But I have been charged with both assault and assault on a female. No convictions, and those charges happened over a decade ago. Should I be probibited? I don't think so.

People with severe mental impairments. Again, this gets tricky. I mean, Homosexuality and Transgenderism used to be comfortable sidered mental impairments. I am no mental health care professional, so I am not sure where to go with this one.

Driving under the influence. Any sort of repeated incidence of substance abuse and irresponsibility.

Now, ideally, I would pair this with a rather more intensive training and licensing requirements. The idea is to give a longer period of close observation so that red flags can be noticed and reported. Of course, that requires that the people they are reported to DO SOMETHING. FBI has a long habit of not following up on Arabs learning how to take off but not land planes, and people issuing threats of mass violence.

[mimekiller]

I support arming public school teachers. A lot of teachers, like cops and The Troops, are petty tyrants and repressed thugs, and this would be cool. Heighten the differences. Let America's chickens come home to roost.

[bralbovsky]

Of all the teachers I have worked with, I have confidence in the training and disposition of only one. He's definitely someone who would take a bullet for a kid, and he's one of the people I know who consistently hits what he aims at.
I also feel that he, sadly, will likely use one of his several guns to end his own life one day.

Specially trained cops should be in schools, but in my experience teachers' plates are already overfull.

[Walrus]

Here's the thing that really pisses me off when it comes to the gun control debate.

The idea of gun control is not about taking all guns away - it is rarely characterised as that by those against it.
The effects of it do not, and have not been claimed (by any rational person) that it will entirely stop gun deaths
It is not a cure or answer to suicide (and no rational person has claimed such)

The primary focus of the result is mass killings.
Someone with an automatic weapon can injure or kill tens maybe a hundred folks before being taken out or put down.
One with a breach loader or even a semi-automatic is limited to 1-2 or maybe 8-12
Someone with a knife or other similar weapon won't take out many at all, and may not kill anyone.

Bad guys who want guns will still get them - sure. Most often from countries without gun laws, but that's not relevant. If carrying guns is illegal - cops don't have to second guess if the guy with the gun on his hip or over his back is breaking the law, they can know what they are dealing with immediately.

The response to a child who finds a knife and cuts their friend isn't to give a knife to it's friends. In the same way as the solution to gun violence isn't to give out more guns.

Guns are tools, and they vary depending on the job they are meant to do. Handguns are designed to be concealed - for the purposes of getting them close to the victim without being noticed. Automatic guns are designed to output large amounts of lead in an area, for the purpose of killing or maiming multiple targets. Neither of these purposes is something a legitimate, law abiding citizen has any business doing, so such restrictions would have no effect on them.
If I am never going to do any building work, what do I need a pressure powered nailgun for? If such is restricted or banned how does it hurt me?

When it comes to the arguments about suicide - gun laws are irrelevant, there is any number of ways people can kill themselves, restricting or policing guns to stop suicide is inane.
When it comes to bad guys still getting guns - sure. It makes it easy to tell who the bad guys are, and giving everyone else a gun has shown not to actually help the situation at all, just make it a lot easier to get guns.

The fact there are some laws in the US already is almost irrelevant, since most of them are not properly enforced, and all of them can be bypassed by a private sale.

[Mike]

Thank you, Bone.

I don't always agree with how you present stuff or what things you choose to put emphasis on, but I seemed to recall that you and I are not that far apart on actual actions we favor. You just confirmed that for me.

I favor stricter background checks and no longer allowing exceptions for gun shows and private sales. I will leave it to experts as to what exactly should disqualify a person and for how long. Violent felonies? Sure. Non-violent crimes? Probably not. Some types of mental illness that increase the likelihood of harm to self or others... yeah. But there are more knowledgeable people than I to hammer out specifics.

I favor stricter training and licensing requirements. Again, I need others to work out the details.

Going beyond what you said, I'd favor measures that mirror how we treat motor vehicles. They should all eventually be registered, with only certain antiques and non-functioning models exempted. But if it still shoots, it should probably be registered. I don't want to turn a bunch of law-abiding gun owners into criminals overnight though, so I'd make registration free and allow a grace period of a year or two or whatever to let people get through the process. Let em do it online like I do my cars. As convenient as we can make it.

I haven't thought much about insurance, but I hear it talked about. I'm ignorant on the subject. Is it covered by your homeowners insurance? I've heard people say that if you are going to carry a firearm you should be required to have insurance in case of mishap. I think I'm cool with that but don't know enough.

Lastly, in my dream world, I'd love to have a huge, nationwide, ongoing buyback program. Purely voluntary. We're not banning anything and not forcing anyone to give up their guns... But if you want to, the option is there. Now, of all the things I've said I know nothing about, this is the one I know least about. I have no clue what the effects or effectiveness of a buyback program would be, but I think it sounds really awesome. When I'm president, I'll hire clever writers to justify it for me.

[Bonefish]

Walrus: I read what you said, and I am pointedly not going to respond. We did this dance already and got nothing meaningful out of it after a dozen pages. Have a great time, but I don't see this being a constructive use of my time to rehash what has already been said. Peace.

Now, Mike.

Private sales: I am not really big on this, because... Well, half my guns have come from private sales. I have since pawned and repurchased them back, effectively going through a background check. Why pawn them and buy em back? Most FFLs charge you 55 bucks or so to do a "registration" or transfer. Pawning it and buying it back also allows me to get a proof or purchase that I can use if my guns are ever stolen etc. Ugh, I do need to call Cheyenne Police Department and get the ball rolling on that.

I would like if there was an easier way for private sellers to do background checks. Like... Why not an app or something that could be used for that purpose? That would, I think, satisfy the desire for accountability and also ease of use. Thoughts?

I'm am cool with a national licensing program. One of the reasons I am going through this thing with Cheyenne is because I secured my firearms with a family member before going to Alabama, because I was unsure on Alabama's laws about traveling with guns. Also, some of the workers I had with me were suspect and I didn't want to catch a concealed weapons charge.

What's that story mean? Our current laws are a fucking hodgepodge patchwork and you can get in serious legal hot water for crossing a state border. I think that's bullshit. California and New York have gone too far.

I don't have homeowners insurance so... I don't know ow about that. I am fine with insurance, so long as it isn't a work around ban: I have seen a lot of people suggest insurance as a way to make the cost of ownership prohibitive. However, I don't think it actually would be so: with 120 or so million gun owners, and less than a million criminal and negligent uses, I think it wouldn't be so bad. I would also assume insurance would help cover legal costs arising from justified actions. So, I am cool with it in principle. In practice, some people worry me.

Nix the gun buy backs. They are not really effective: there's more than a few legit gun owners who dig out old bullshit guns and go sell them to the buy backs to get the money. And at least one fun Smith has created plans for a "buy back" gun that can be built in your garage for dollars. I get the idea, but it would be better to just offer amnesty for turning in a gun. Otherwise it's exploitable.

And I apologize on my presentations. This sort of thing is what I always want to do, legitimate and constructive conversation. But in fifteen years of talking about this, I think I have had this conversation with about three or four people. Usually it's just slinging shit back and forth, so my threshold has gotten damn near non existent.

[Phoebe]

Without focusing on guns, it seems to me there are number things schools can do just to ramp up security. These are things I've observed at various of my kids schools in different combinations. At one, the entire place is locked down tight at all entrances and exits. They installed new doors for this purpose. You can't enter without somebody buzzing you in. Some of the other schools here have metal detectors. At the junior high there was a police officer who checked everyone in, and they actually searched your bags before you could go in. Students were not allowed to carry a backpack or large purse through the hallways. I assume this allow the security guards to focus quickly on anyone who is spotted with a bag.

[DMDarcs]

[buckett]

When we have to turn grade schools into prison-lite complexes and/or arm educators with firearms, we've simply failed as a society.

[mimekiller]

I always thought you could apply the sky marshal concept to schools without compromising the "feel" of the school greatly.

[Phoebe]

Would they sit in classes with the students? I think this is a Drew Barrymore movie.

[Tahlvin]

Found an someone made to help reporters more knowledgeably discuss firearms.

And just as an aside, law enforcement, both local and the FBI, sure seems to have a lot to answer for their actions before and during the Parkland shooting.

[Phoebe]

Yep. The stories this morning about the armed guard, and the sheer number of calls they received with detailed information about the threat this guy posed... It's just sickening really. I can't imagine what those poor people are suffering, hearing all that, having people accuse them of being actors, having some shrill NRA witch out there lying to the public because God forbid anyone think of guns in this situation. And beyond the lies, why is it appropriate to screech any gun arguments at teenagers who just watched a gun blow a friend's face off? I mean, have some damn human decency. The same people who will bray about how it's "too soon" to discuss the role of guns are never tardy with hostility toward victims who mention guns in the midst of their grief. Good God.

[Tahlvin]

I read something last night about systemic practices by local law enforcement and politicians, and school administrators, to suppress/not document crimes committed by students, in Miami/Dade and Broward counties, in an effort to "improve" the crime statistics within the school districts. That practice is why so many of the earlier reports about the shooter did not lead to any actual preventive actions by local law enforcement. none of the interactions by various folks over the past couple years related to the shooter led to concrete action, including some issues with/sent to the school resource officer from the sheriff department, the same one who was at the site of the shooting within 90 seconds but failed to enter the building and confront the shooter.

It's so sad.

[mimekiller]

Let the pros handle it!
https://nypost.com/2018/02/23/four-sher ... -shooting/

[Bonefish]

"run towards the sound of gunfire" apparently isn't a thing for them

[bralbovsky]

This is exactly the flaw in the 'good guy with gun' theory.

A classic murder investigation probes for motive, opportunity and means.
Address any of them to reduce murders.
Make life insurance restrictions, or help insane people, or reduce bullying and alienation, murders go down.
Lock your doors, post guards, install cameras or other deterrents, murders go down.

Guns and their availability, is part of the third leg. We have failed, for a host of reasons, some specious, others cautious, to really dig into this as a culture. I don't think it's as hard as we pretend.