Animal Chattel

[Phoebe]

Popping this out from the other thread in case it is fruitful for further discussion... I take it one could hold the views both that animals are chattel/property not possessing rights, and that we should restrict the behaviors of people who would inflict certain forms of violence or neglect upon them. Isn't this pretty much how the law stands now? Or has that been changing?

[Mike]

I'm okay with laws against cruelty to animals, and I understand that the definition of "cruelty" is varied and problematic.

I'm not okay with animals having the right to legal representation in a court of law.

Animals are property.

[Tahlvin]

Agree, in general. But I also understand that our understanding of our fellow animals is growing and expanding, in terms of the range of emotional and intellectual capabilities and complexities of different species. When it comes to things like other species of primates, for example, I think there has been, will continue to be, and should be, some changes to how we view and treat those species. I mean, c'mon, Mike, you talked on your last podcast about the gorilla who remembered his mother's throat being cut, do we really continue to view him as property on the same level as a house pet?

[Kyle]

Yeah- we can have animal cruelty laws because that's gross, disturbing behavior. But I don't think it merits jail time in most cases- unless you're destroying someone else's animal (property).

Also, apes having artistic rights over selfies is stupid.

[Mike]

I get what you're saying, T, but still legally property. Maybe the definition of "cruelty" expands based on our understanding of the emotional capacity of the animal (or something), but still legally property. As Kyle says, apes getting legal ownership of selfies because a photographer handed them a camera is ridiculous in my book.

[Phoebe]

As long as you can buy and sell animals, aren't owned ones pretty much by definition property or chattel?

But given that basic framework, it seems like we could have a very expansive definition of how well animal property needs to be treated.

[mimekiller]