Starfinder

[Zen]

Dang! I can't wait to get my eyes on this!!! It was still downloading last night, but I was busy getting stuff ready to take my kid back to school... I'll have to download it into my Kindle for the weekend...

[El Jefe]

I'm covering some of this more in-depth on FB, but I'll try to remember to swing back here to discuss some of the standouts.

Which reminds me, that if anyone wants to be connected on FB, and we aren't, feel free to drop a PM here. I'm notoriously bad about checking friend requests, and have a ridiculous level of privacy settings enabled...making it difficult to search or add me.

[El Jefe]

Somebody needs a damn award for Bulk.

Let's rip out everything that makes encumbrance annoying as hell. Let's add what the AC penalties only system is missing. And then let's wrap it all up in a system that will be easy to use with changing gravities, due to the very real concern this will be in the setting.

Who ever did this, you're a goddamn

[El Jefe]

Selling gear at 10% value and wealth as storyline-based.

I'd like to have a funeral for the idea of every single enemy being turned into some sort of post-death stripper. But it will be a Viking funeral, and I'll be dancing naked in joy.

BYE DUNGEONEERING BULLSHIT!

[El Jefe]

Classes (as I just started getting to them). Short descriptions, and maybe a few notes for each.

Envoy - Ever wanted to have all the buffs (for allies) and debuffs (for enemies) without using any spells? And rogue's skill points? And an investigator's inspiration? Now you do. This is a class that needs to be carefully built, or you'll end up with a wide variety of weak abilities. Standout ability: At level 12+, you can literally just give an ally an extra standard action that round.

Mechanic - Forget rangers, hunters, and druids. This is THE companion class now, and these companions have been upgraded. You either have an external drone or an internal headspace version of Iron Man's Jarvis. That's before we get into things like overloading somebody's gear, remote hacking, and repairing starship systems on the fly. Oh yeah...somebody liked the Mass Effect tech classes here. Standout ability: All of them? At level 19+, you can remotely control your drone AND starship from basically anywhere on the same planet or surrounding orbit. At level 14+, overcharging a gun or powered melee weapon to do an extra 4d6 damage. Dragonball Z time!

Mystic - The better parts of oracle combined with some aspects of cleric and inquisitor. This is your divine style caster, but they have a great deal more in the way of abilities and powers now, and end up focusing on a specific connection (sort of like domains). The connections are broader, better defined, and cross a variety of alignments, deities, and philosophies. All around, a BIG improvement on clerical stylings. Standout ability: Yeah, eventually, you no longer age and never die of old age...so immortality? Note: Spontaneous caster (so limits on spells known, like a sorcerer or oracle)

Operative - Oh...I don't even know where to start with this one. So, rogues in PF have long been viewed as substantially underpowered compared to the other classes. Unchained worked to fix this. Starfinder perfected it. Sneak attack has been completely reworked into trick attack, allowing it to avoid the mess of constantly needing to flank or feint or some other version of the same. Adding in the insane amount of skillmonkey type abilities really pushes this class into a favored spot for me. And with the specialization each operative needs to pick, you can be anything from a dashing corsair-like explorer, stealthy sniper, Sherlock Holmes-ian investigator, snatch-and-grab artist, or data hacker. My favorite part is that trick attack ties into your specialization, meaning that you use your signature skills and style to pull of those trick attacks. Standout ability: Multi-attack powers (as true multi-attacks in the same round are much rarer in SF) that eventually lead to you becoming a melee weapon or small arms rapid-firing, death-dealing, trick-attacking avatar of DPS.

Solarion - Monk + Magus + Oracle + Barbarian mixed with viewing the primal forces of creation and destruction (stars or black holes) as power to call upon. Stellar energy formed into either armor or weapons. And the weapon side (in particular) is TERRIFYING. You can call your stellar manifestation easily, and there seems to be no limits on how long or how often. The weapon's damage increases, up to a max of 12d6. Yup, you read that correctly. This is the melee beatstick to take down all melee beatsticks, forever and ever. The powers let you do things both in and out of combat, but the real prize is the Dragonball Z style build of power (almost like an accumulating rage) during combat. Then the powers go into overdrive. And there are finishing moves. Standout ability: Unleashing a miniature star (with burning plasma and gravity pull) as an area effect attack on enemies. Yup, you just called up a goddamn sun.

Soldier - Yeah...this is the fighter class you've always wanted. Every class in SF has a key attribute, and every class except Soldier has that key attribute already determined. To finally deal with the issue of DEX or STR fighters, they left this option flexible for soldier. You pick which one is your key attribute, and it remains that way forever (probably unless retrained). You then move forward to picking a primary fighting style, which comes out like a mix of ranger combat styles, fighter weapon training, and the unchained monk's style strikes. And there is a great deal of variety on those fighting styles, letting you do everything from a sniper, heavy weapons expert, powered armor tank, fast-movement up-close melee, and more. My personal favorite is the arcane style, that lets you mix weird magus-influenced powers with your gear...even with guns. Standout ability: Fighting styles (and you even get a second one, ableit at decreased effectiveness, at later levels). They're that freaking cool.

Technomancer - The 2nd spell-casting class, and probably closer to the traditional wizard...but still huge differences. First up, metamagic feats moved from being feats to tricks that a technomancer can use. AND THAT IS DAMN SMART. That encourages folks to use metamagic more often, and it ties the class into the setting more. You'll do things like drain a battery to energize a spell, or use a spell slot to empower a weapon with additional features. Then we get to your spell cache (the future-tech version of a spellbook...kinda?). You'll get to do things like use it to cast an extra spell per day, and at later levels...have it sustain particular spells on you for a full 24 hour period. Need darkvision? Got it covered. Standout ability: The spell cache. Note: Also a spontaneous caster (there appear to be NO prepared casters in SF, at least in the core rules).

Weapon/Armor Proficiency and Specialization
First off, we ditched three different armor types to move exclusively to light and heavy armor. Powered armor is a thing, but I haven't delved into that yet. And that's fantastic. Every class can use armor at least light armor, and it doesn't interfere with casting (as far as I can tell yet, haven't hit the equipment chapter).

And oh how we have needed these weapon proficiency changes. Weapons now belong to groups (like basic melee weapons, advanced melee weapons, small arms, long arms, etc.) Everybody gets more than one group, and more than a few classes now ended with easy grenade usage. Additionally, at 3rd level, EVERY SINGLE CLASS automatically gets weapon specialization with the groups they gained at the start. That means they add character level to damage for any attacks with those weapons. Finally, the idea of balanced characters surges back to the fore. Your casters don't need to be goofy robe-wearing weaklings that have a dagger they'll never use.

Casters
So far, no prepared casters exist in SF. And I'm actually pretty happy about that. Sure, you'll have less spells available. But both casters find ways to increase that number. And both classes end up with a huge array of other abilities that more than make up for the loss of variety. It is a change that I think will take some adjustment, but in the end, I think it is a wise decision long-term. We'll see what future supplements bring.

Also, only 6 levels of spells is interesting. I'm going to be curious when I get to that chapter to see how this works out.

[El Jefe]

Skills
I'm not covering these in-depth. Short version: They consolidated skills in a way that works much smoother. They also improved the usefulness of a number of skills.

Feats
Wow. Prepare for a substantial amount of changes to feats you thought you knew. Notable ones I'll call out:

1. Improved Unarmed Strike (starts off at a base of 1d6 damage and ends with 7d6 damage at 20th level, as well as being available to effectively everybody)
2. Fleet - Now gives you a straight +10 bonus to movement speed
3. Harm Undead - Yup, it's a feat now, though it is still basically mystics (cleric/oracle type) only.
4. Improved Critical - No longer improves your threat range, but instead increases DC to resist a weapon's critical effect (no idea what that means yet). Also, no longer weapon specific that I can see, which is huge.
5. Combat Casting - Now benefits AC against AoOs when casting, as concentration checks are no longer a thing, apparently.
6. Deadly Aim - Now works for both melee and ranged weapons. Flat penalty to attack, but damage is equal to half your BAB. This (and the new Weapon Specialization) explains why Power Attack is gone, and also why any feats that allow DEX to apply to damage are gone.
7. Pull the Pin - Disarm an enemy, and set off their grenades instead of disarming a weapon. AWESOME addition.
8. Spell Focus - The DC bonus to resist now increases as you level up. Very nice.
9. Barricade - Use junk lying around to build temporary cover as a move action. Only works for a few rounds at most, but really nice option for engineering types...especially with the increased emphasis on ranged weaponry.
10. Toughness - More Stamina Points, and they added most of the benefits Endurance gave you. Wise revisions there.

[El Jefe]

Equipment
Again, not worth covering specifics, as there is way too much to cover. I'll go with the highlights.

1. Gear - This is back to a Shadowrun mindset here, rather than a traditional D&D mindset. That means long lists of varying types of gear, and working to keep them balanced against each other (while still providing something unique). Gone are "It's a longsword." In is "that's a zero-edge longsword, and that one is a ultra-thin razorblade longsword." Some aren't going to like that change, but frankly, I've always preferred SR's wealth of gear. It honestly works even easier in SF, because of the wider variety of damage types and resistances available. Not just laser pistols, but cryo pistols, and flame pistols, and acid shooters, etc. SR didn't have built in damage types or specific resistances.

2. Item Level - Basically a rating of how objectively good or how high-quality your gear is. Also limits the magic/tech upgrades you can put on (think PF magical weapon qualities). But here's the most important thing. A very clear cut set of rules on Hit Points, hardness, and saving throws for all equipment, based directly off Item Level. No longer needing to know how many HP and hardness a ring has versus a wand or a belt. Simple, look at item level, use the relevant formula, done. Great choice.

3. Upgrading gear - Weapons, armor, and computers are likely going to be the gear most frequently needing upgrades. So, weapons get weapon fusions (think magic weapon qualities, like bane) and fusion cores. Weapon fusions are directly tied to a specific weapon, and cheaper to do. Fusion cores are an emblem or icon or some small object that can move a specific weapon fusion as a portable upgrade from weapon to weapon. Not surprisingly, they are harder to craft and more expensive. Armor gets similar "slots" for upgrades, as do computers. The computer system is...better than SR4 and 5's mess with commlinks and a never ending security loop. But maybe not quite as easy to use as I would like.

4. Crafting - Only very basic rules on crafting currently. But I'm a huge fan of them already. Using an item's level, you can make any item that you have an equivalent number of ranks in the skill used for crafting that item. No skill check, you just make it. It costs the same effectively the same as purchasing a weapon, however custom-built equipment has slightly more HP, hardness, and higher saving throws than mass market gear (the item is treated as having a slightly higher item level). We'll see how this stands after things like the gamemastery guide and any potential magic rules compendium hits the market.

5. Critical hits (with weapons) - Due to the fact that there are less feats and abilities that add to weapon damage now, the design team made the really smart choice to simply critical damage. When you have a critical hit now and double (or triple, or whatever multiplier) damage, all damage is included. 2d8+6 simply because 4d8+12. Straightforward and simple. Adding on to that though, is critical effects. These are qualities that weapons either have themselves, or can be added by weapon fusions. Many offer up a potential saving throw by the target, which if failed, add another effect to the target. Examples would be shock weapons arcing to hit another nearby target on a critical, or plasma weapons potentially setting the target on fire. Nice work on simplifying criticals, while also adding a system that encourages characters to pick weapons which suit their style and needs.

6. Augmentations - Cyberware, bioware, and more...oh my! It is a simplified system (1 augmentation per available "body" slot) that keeps things useful but balanced. Lots of shades of Shadowrun and Eclipse Phase here. Cyber is the default, but bio options are available that mimic all cyber, at a slightly higher cost. I'm not blown away by the system, but not disappointed. It is solid, useful, and easy to access. Goal accomplished. One thing to note is personal upgrades. These are effectively what replaces the various belt and headband ability score enhancers. You can only have three of these total, and only one of each tier (+2, +4, and +6). Each one must be used for a different ability score. Simple and effective. Good choices, design team.

[El Jefe]

Starships (and why we're really all here)

It's...really good. Ship-building (I've test built three), just enough crunch to satisfy but major focus on easy usage. Ship roles...yeah, if players and the GM buy in on these concepts, nobody will feel left out. Social characters will have a blast with what they can potentially do as Captain. But other types (especially skillmonkeys) will find a great deal of success in this role as well. It isn't difficult to allow PCs to have a larger ship class, and stand-in as officers, running teams of NPCs (or automatons...a very strong possibility in this setting!). Or going down to the smallest single person fighter/lander. I can easily see the system working for large fleet actions with a variety of ship sizes or down to the easiest level of a single smuggler transport making a run. Exploration, combat, and other (read: smuggling and piracy) both get equal access and coverage in terms of gear, rules, and weapons systems.

The only major area of concern I had coming into this has been handled well, in my mind. It's not a perfect system, but with groups really buying in, it strikes a happy medium between complexity and easy access.

[Reika]

Starfinder is just fantastic.

I love what they've done with spellcasting. Some spells are variable level, a caster takes it at a particular level, they can use it as that level or below. They can then retake it at a higher level and replace that lower level spell with a different one.

So for example the Technomancer spell Flight.

As a first level spell it acts as feather fall. Then when the technomancer reaches 4th level and can cast 2nd level spells, they can retake Flight as a 2nd level spell and take a different 1st level spell to replace it. They can still cast it either as a 1st level spell or a 2nd level spell. Whatever their class level is in Technomancer applies regardless of what level the spell is cast at.

Like Jeff mentioned earlier, feats have been changed. Such as Spell Focus. Instead of having it affect a specific school, it affects all spells (but not spell like abilities) that character can cast. It also improves as time goes on.

[Zen]

I also love what they did with things like Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization. In Pathfinder, Weapon Focus is a SINGLE WEAPON feat. You have to pick a specific weapon, like Longsword, Rapier, Longbow, etc... It gives you an extra +1 damage bonus with that weapon. Then, and only then, can you get Weapon Specialization in the weapon, IF you are a 4th level or greater FIGHTER, giving you a +2 damage bonus with that weapon.

Starfinder redefines Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization entirely.

Weapon Focus is about accuracy. It applies to ALL weapons of the selected type, not just a single weapon. So if you take it with small arms, it applies to all small arms, etc... It gives you a +1 to hit with weapons of that class, OR, if your BAB is at least 3 lower than your character level, +2.

Weapon Specialization is about damage. It also applies to ALL weapons of the selected type. It is available starting at 3rd level and, indeed, is a class feature for many of the classes at 3rd level. Instead of a simple +1 or +2 to the damage, you add +Character_Level to your damage (or + 1/2 Character_Level for small arms or operative melee weapons) for every weapon of the selected type. So, basically, your damage increases as you increase in levels. (Grenades are excluded... You can't increase the damage of something you throw away that just goes boom, I guess.)

There are also Versatile versions of each of these, which give you the benefits of these feats for ALL weapon types with which you are proficient.

If you were building a character who was a master of all weaponry, you could be a soldier, take Weapon Focus as your first feat, Versatile Focus as your first Combat Feat, then Versatile Specialization as your 3rd level Feat at the same time as the automatic Weapon Specialization. So by 3rd level, you'd be focused and specialized in everything except "Special Weapons" (which you still have to take one at a time, because... well... they're "special". Currently, the special weapons listed are "Carbonedge shuriken", "Nyfiber net", and "Bow". It does look like you can buy "Grenade Arrows" though, so taking a specialization in Bow may not be the worst idea in the world... It would be relatively silent in terms of the delivery method and you could get it there at a greater distance than just throwing one without the noise of a grenade launcher...)

I really like this concept. They appear to have done a lot of this type of consolidation of feats and things like that.

[Reika]

I agree about weapon focus and spec. That was great. Especially since every class gets spec at 3rd level.

I also appreciate that even the spellcasters can wear light armor.

[Phoebe]

I've liked all the changes I've seen so far to the currently-familiar pathfinder system, and the setting and new class options make this over the top cool even before you get to starships!

Put another way, I sense (hopefully) that many of you want to try running a game in this setting as soon as possible, and I will play whatever. Anything you need to fill out ya group.

[El Jefe]

One thing to note, in specific to what Zen is discussing.

Grenades are CRAZY expensive. I understand why, as they didn't want combat to becoming pineapple tossing contests. But grenades may very well be best served as loot, rather than forcing players to purchase them. Higher level grenades can start to cost upwards of 1/5th of the total wealth recommended for that level. For a single-use item.

The flip side to that is be careful adjusting prices on grenades. You'll easily lead to everybody packing entire backpacks filled with what are effectively necklace of fireballs.

BTW, let me just say this about combat in general. It isn't Pathfinder. While that is true for a great deal of rules in SF, do not come into this believing you know the rules. The amount of little tweaks and clarifications done in SF DRASTICALLY change some of the conventional wisdom of PF groups.

Also, considering what some of the weapons can do as things level up (and the overall fact that your gear is largely going to be lagging far behind your level)...cover just became your new best friend.

To Phoebe's point: While I'm not ready to look at a full on campaign, I'm currently working on a plan for about 10 to 12 "episodes" of Starfinder, using a group of about a dozen pre-made characters. I'm planning to run it in short, 2 or 3 episode arcs for a max of 6 players, skipping and fast-forwarding some of the things as needed (so the characters can advance a bit more quickly). This will let folks drop in or drop out as needed, since they'll only need to commit to making 2 or 3 sessions to finish a story arc. It will also help me stress-test the rules under actual game conditions.

[Phoebe]

SIGN ME UP do I need to travel to you how much are the plane tickets?

[Zen]

I'm in! (Roll20 I presume?)

[Reika]

I'd probably be interested.

[Cazmonster]

Imna have to buy me some Starfinder. Course, it has to wait until I read my loot from the show and play those games.

As soon as I can, I will get things going. The one upshot to know is that my schedule may finally stop being sadistic.

[El Jefe]

So one area I've already found that needs some house rules is ammo and grenades. Whether it be actual ammo, or charges for powered weapons...SF puts way too much emphasis on controlling power creep by using item costs as a weapon to beat the "greedy" players back. While I can understand the issues some groups may face in that regard, it isn't something I've found to be an issue in my own groups.

Using that philosophy, the design team for SF drastically changed the scale of item pricing. This works fine for weapons in general, as it is a one-time cost (and for most gear). It breaks down badly when you start to look at things like batteries and grenades. Batteries cost you 60 credits, giving you 20 charges. After having built a half-dozen or so starting characters, I can say with confidence...your 1000 credits doesn't go very far at all. You will struggle to find a way to get what you feel is "necessary" gear when it comes to normal gaming expectations. Trying to figure out computer costs and fitting that item in is going to be REALLY tough in some cases. So 60 credits a pop at the low levels leaves you in a place where starting characters will waste much of their money on ammo and nothing more.

For some, that works fine with their styles and sensibilities. For me, I just see that as needlessly punishing the players to play a game of Accountant and Logistics Expert, rather than Starfinder. While I'm generally onboard with the design ideas behind the game, I find that the battery and ammo issue (and let me not forget that ammo is pretty expensive on its own) is...silly.

So it's time to fall back to a Reddit idea I've stolen in the past, with a few modifications. (I'm sure this rule is much older, I simply saw it first on Reddit).

The Return to Base (RTB) Rule
Nothing changes in terms of reloading. You still keep track of how many rounds/charges remain in your weapons. When you run out of ammo, you roll a single die. I prefer starting with a d12, and working my way down. Trial and error will tell you what works best for your SF games. When you roll the die, a result of 2-12 (or anything other than a 1, on other dice) means you are assumed to have enough spares on you. On a result of 1, you downgrade the die (d12 goes to d10, then d8, d6, and finally d4). If you roll a 1 on a d4 RTB check, you are grasping and finding nothing but air. Bingo fuel, bucko. It is now in the hands of the GM to say when your ammo is refilled (generally, whenever you can return to something resembling home base or civilization). Maybe you can scrounge enough enemy supplies, and the GM will reset to a higher die. Maybe you can build your own. Whatever works. But this way, we keep it cinematic, fun, and nobody needs to track ridiculous numbers for ammo, charges (used for every damn electronic item in the game at insane consumption levels), and so on.

El Jefe's Grenade Addendum
So on second thought, I'm largely okay with the crazy costs of grenades in SF (and they are absolutely high), if we use a variation on the RTB rule. While the RTB rule doesn't require players to pay the upfront costs for their ammo supplies, I will for grenades. So, let's say you want to buy 3 Shock grenades for yourself, as a starting character. That is going to cost you 130 Credits a pop, when you start with only 1000. Let's do some comparison shopping shall we? That is literally more expensive than the lowest level projectile heavy weapon (which is 250 and 3 Shock grenades run you 390). So you have a grenade that does 1d8 Energy damage, out to 15 ft, uses thrown weapon ranges, gets no way to increase damage, and is a consumable item. The heavy weapon gives you a cannon that fires out to 90 ft, replaces ammo far cheaper, and does 1d10 Piercing, while also allowing you to penetrate object hardness and destroy items and defenses easier. This would literally mean that in-faction militaries in SF would go utterly broke just affording smoke grenades for their forces. That's goofy as fuck.

So here's the revised grenade rules. Whatever amount of grenades you want to have on hand, pay that upfront cost. Once you burn through them, you'll need to get a GM-approved RTB rest period (or something similar, like finding an enemy cache of grenades). I WANT my players to actually use cool things like stickybomb entangling grenades, smoke for cover, and more modern options. This rule lets them do that.

Edit: Good on the design team for finally learning from the mess that is healing and disguise kits in PF. They are no longer consumable, meaning players may actually consider using them. Also, tiny rule addition. Buying rations and tracking them is still fine. Actually having people buy clothes or stupidly common use, everyday items is unnecessary. So we definitely won't be doing that. My one complaint would be: There should have been monthly lifestyle costs rules in here by default.

[Reika]

To be honest the starting cost issue isn't unusual. The hundred someodd gold that characters in PF get doesn't go very far either. It's why a good number of GMs, including you Jeff , tend to give a bit more to start with. Not enough for magic items, but enough to buy half way decent gear and to afford basic mounts.

[akiva]

Does Starfinder require Pathfinder? Or is it a complete game in itself? Also, any idea how it would seem to someone who played a little bit of 3.X but never played PF?