Parenting Question

[Phoebe]

Pardon me, quick question for ya: how do you parent the "teenager"? Namely, what do you do with someone who is 98% great on their own but then has a strong if small element of "beyond reason" and "no logic to the sleeping pattern" and "salty hostile comment" and "does opposite of whatever you suggest, recommend, or demand"? TIA, double application for spouse likely.

[Stan]

I dunno. Mine is very stubborn. A couple weeks ago, I begged her not to do a thing, or X would happen. She did the thing. X happened. She's very smart but I don't know if she'll graduate high school due to depression and anxiety. Maybe a clear system of rewards? Crying?

In this case, I hope TIA isn't temporary ischemic attack? That's the only acronym I know for it.

[Zen]

I can echo Stan's position. We were worried last year that our daughter's boarding school was actively trying to get rid of her due to her various medical/anxiety issues. We seriously felt like some of the people there had decided she was too much of a risk because of her health, despite not having any serious grade problems. (Not that her grades are excellent, mind you. What's really sad is that her first year roommate got sick near the end of last year with some sort of long term illness that had her out for a month and ended up transferring back to her home district to finish, because she was told she would have to repeat her Junior year in order to graduate from IMSA. No idea why she couldn't finish her work over the summer as incompletes and come back with the rest of the seniors... And THAT girl DID have close to straight A's! She's a flippin' genius. I have no clue what she'll do for math back at her home district. She was taking Calculus as a 2nd term sophomore. I expect she is on Differential Calculus at this point... I guess she can just go to community college?) But I digress...

Teenagers and anxiety issues seem to go together. They did when we were that age. It seems to be even more the case today. If it is a big enough issue that it is impacting her life in terms of major sleep loss or potential self harm, don't hesitate to seek help!

[Tahlvin]

Phoebe didn't mention anxiety or particular health (physical or mental) concerns, just that the teenager in question is 98% okay with a smattering of typical teenager "stuff" thrown in for good measure (back-talk, trying their own thing, etc.).

I'm on my third teenager, and the one thing I can say is that there's no one, single answer that works for every kid. But here are some tips based on what my wife and I have experienced (good and bad).

First, don't try to force things. You've done the majority of the formative work on your child already, the teenage years are where that gets put to practical application. The sleep thing for example: don't force them to be on your schedule. However, you should set expectations in advance. So if they need to be up early Sunday morning to attend church (for instance), let them know that ahead of time what time you expect them to be ready, and that you expect them to be ready without much oversight on your part or complaints on their part. And let them know the consequences if they do not meet those requirements: if they're not ready on time, or complain too much about being tired, then they lose their phone for half the day, or lose access to the computer, or have to babysit their siblings for the afternoon without pay, etc. And be prepared to follow through if they actually don't meet your requirements. But otherwise, allow them the freedom to act as they want, within reason. So if they want to stay up until 2 AM playing games on the computer, that's fine, as long as they behave as expected in the morning, AND as long as they are not being loud and keeping the rest of the family up until 2 AM. And certainly, the first few times you allow them to stay up late like that, you'll spend the night tossing and turning, but you'll get used to it eventually. Or at least be less worried (or alternately, more exhausted so you just collapse and sleep anyways).

At this stage, you're preparing them for the real world, where they'll have to make their own choices and live with the consequences. So run things more like they have a job, where you let them know what's expected of them ahead of time, and the "rewards" if they get those things done, and the consequences if they don't do them, then let them choose the path they take to get there.

Obviously, you don't give up control completely. You still have to make sure they don't do anything that is actually dangerous. And you don't just completely remove the boundaries overnight and let them live their whole life however they want. You start by giving them a a bit of latitude, and let them prove they're worthy of the responsibility, then give them more and more, with whatever correction is needed along the way.

But if, as you say, the child is 98% great, then chances are it's just typical teenager behavior where they are wanting to express their individuality, expand their boundaries, spread their wings, etc., then let them (within reason).

That's rambling, hopefully you get the idea. Our first teenager (who will actually be 21 in December) actually wasn't much of a problem. Our second is very strong-willed, has her own way she wants to do things, etc. So much so that we give her grocery money and let her buy her own food and make her own meals, because she doesn't want what the rest of us are eating. So we just make sure she's eating a balanced diet, but otherwise let her do her own thing.

[Zen]

True... true... I read the part about sleep issues and extrapolated from personal experience. My older one was the type who had the odd sleep patterns from an early age. (He has a CPAP now and will be 21 in October. He could also use to loose quite a few pounds, but he inherited his mother's side of the family's metabolism. His grandfather is doing much better now that he has his diabetes under control and is 85. Lived longer than either of my parents, despite cancer, diabetes, and multiple benign brain tumors... so it isn't all bad.)

[Tahlvin]

Yes, if there are health problems that are contributing to certain behaviors, whether physical or mental, then the underlying medical problem needs to be addressed. But if this is a just a normal teenager trying to express himself or herself, and spread his/her wings a bit, let them.

Raising strong-willed kids can be a pain in the butt when they are teenagers, and so much depends on the foundation you laid when they were younger. But it can be so rewarding to watch them become adults.

[Zen]

Nothing but strong willed kids around here... That and sarcastic as hell... They come by that honestly.

[Iantha]

[El Jefe]

[Phoebe]

[Phoebe]

Having had some time to reflect upon this, I am interested in the idea that the sleep problem is one we should let go. This is a big problem; I can't sleep when a kid is awake roaming the house or otherwise unaccounted for, so it means that I am getting very little sleep, and it wasn't like I had a corner on the sleep market before this. Other people come home and take a nap; napping is almost never an option for me. So, for that reason alone the sleep thing is troubling me, but maybe I should just learn to live with it. There are some other side effects of this problem you can infer and that I won't spell out, but they're real.

However, when I stack up "sleep problem" against "homework/organizational problem" and "illicit food consumption in illicit areas problem", I would rather fight the latter two battles than the former. Grades matter, and although I think the grades are going to be influenced by the sleep problem, there comes a point when young people are mentally resilient and can get the job doing without as much sleep. So the main thing is that the job gets done. The food consumption thing is just... I am going to run away from home if people keep throwing their food wastes all over my house, among other things. So maybe I will concentrate on those two things for now and see where it goes. My husband is like, you can't keep taking the phone away because eventually you run out of ammo there and it becomes meaningless. It is still a meaningful consequence for now, and the beauty is, driving death-causing heavy metal fast moving vehicles will occur straight over my dead body if people aren't sleeping proper sleep and otherwise getting life in order... so the day for that one is coming.

The tl;dr version of this is that having a teenager makes me think I was a shitty parent right up until this point, because otherwise WHY? HOW? And I continue to be a shitty parent, especially of teenagers. This is not a good age for me + parenting.

[Bonefish]

The sleep thing is probably a lost battle. I haven't been able to get to sleep before 11 to 12 for about... 15 years now. So, maybe that's just his or her's sleep cycle, and if that's the case... Well, that's what it is. I woke up at 4:41 this morning, and... I've been going pretty strong with minimal caffiene, and I almost garauntee you I will be up at 11pm tonight, and do it all over again tomorrow.

Plus they say that smart people just don't sleep as much. Sooo, maybe it's a win for your kid?

[Mike]

With the sleep thing, if it's become apparent that you're not going to convince her to go to sleep at a reasonable hour most nights, it's still in your best interest to highlight to her the effects that her sleep schedule have on the rest of her life. People are terrible at diagnosing and recognizing when sleep is affecting them. Most people think (and often pride themselves on the fact that) they just don't need much sleep and they get by just fine with only 5 hours a night or whatever. Same way people are bad at telling how much alcohol is affecting them, or how productive they are while multi-tasking, etc. She probably doesn't need as much sleep as you think she does, BUT I would keep an eye out for patterns and point out when it looks like it might be affecting her. Or even better, after a night when she DOES get a lot of sleep, point out the positive benefits the next day, whether she's less grumpy or more focused or less stressed or whatever the effect is. Help her learn to recognize how her behaviors affect her mental and physical health and functioning.

Having said that, I do this with my kids, and it doesn't seem to do shit. But I'm hoping this is one of those delayed lessons that is sinking in even if they won't realize the wisdom of it for a while. My oldest finally got it, but he's 22 and living on his own.

[Iantha]

[Phoebe]

Glad it's not just me. We discussed with pediatrician too, whose criterion for concern at this age was primarily whether the subject is sleeping or tired in a way the subject dislikes or cannot control, as opposed to whether other people like it or can control it! If people aren't falling asleep in school or missing things they didn't want to sleep through, then fine with the doctor.

This is a suboptimal thing. I am a natural morning person who has been subjugated for years by the bad routines of night people, and now one and maybe two of my kids are night people as well. It's bad enough already. Sometimes work forces me to live the way I prefer for a day or two and let the chips fall where they may, and holy cow do those chips go flying!

I would be a lot more productive and happy in life if I could sleep from about 11 to 7.

[Tahlvin]

I feel for you. But you cannot force the teenager to adapt to a schedule that's not natural for them, just because it's more convenient for you. Otherwise, you're just The Man whose trying to harsh her gig.

[Zen]

[Phoebe]

He looks kind of haggard. Maybe it's for the Role? He used to be about as cute as a baby bunny. Hope it's not drugs.

[Phoebe]

I can't cope with the sleep issue. I'm starting the work week on about 4 hrs sleep, which is pretty typical. Assuming I can sleep at all now. I can't do my work under these conditions. There is also a difficulty coping with someone who is utterly devoid of reason about 15% of the time. I mean utterly devoid in ways that even lower mammals and toddlers are not, given their basic ability to choose beneficial things. My parenting skill is dead at this age.

[Tahlvin]

Your child is devoid of reason 15% of the time? You are so lucky! My teenagers are devoid of reason at least 30% of the time! You should be turning cartwheels of joy and sleeping like a baby based on that fact alone!