We're not cool with Mel Gibson, right?

[Kyle]

[Mike]

[Zen]

Well, yeah, but that doesn't change the fact that he's a racist, homophobic, sexist, drunk putz. (I'm missing something there... What's the term for someone who persecutes based on religion?)

[Kyle]

That actually makes sense. But like Zen says, that doesn't make him more palatable to me.

Look- I don't watch Woody Allen movies, and it's partly on principle, but it's also because I feel skeeved out sitting down and watching anything he's involved in. I can't remove myself from the thoughts of "he's a gross child molester" and I guess that's what I'm saying about Gibson. Like- how can you just let that go and say, "But he's hilarious in this movie?"

And I understand that a lot of people in Hollywood have done bad things. Marky Mark punch an asian guy's eye out because he was asian (allegedly, when Marky Mark was like 17 or 18). And that's awful. But doing a terrible thing when you're young and dumb, and a terrible thing when you're a grown adult marks up differently in my book.

Go fuck yourself Mel Gibson and every fucking person that thinks it's a good idea to have him star in a movie. I bring up Marky Mark because Mel Gibson is staring as he dad in the comedy sequel Daddy's Home 2 this fall.

[Mike]

[Kyle]

Okay- and I don't want to get in to a fight about it, but I feel different about Mike Tyson. Several years ago I read an article about his rape conviction, which led me down a rabid hole of a half dozen other articles that raise serious questions about his guilt. But to me that's a different case because I did my own investigation and drew my own conclusions. So I don't want people to think, "You're okay with Mike Tyson even though he's a rapist?" No. That's not what I'm saying- but I have a lot of questions about his guilt.

[Mike]

[Kyle]

Yeah. I'm not going to get into a fight about it here, so I'm not going to sit here and argue with you about it and your assumptions in the statement that he's a rapist. The reason that I brought it up is because you're throwing a whole bunch of names out there, and I didn't want to make it seem like I agreed with you on each example you named. I regret bringing it up because it has now derailed the entire point of the thread.

[Mike]

Sorry. No intent to derail. You added more discussion on Tyson, so I was entering my own past words on the subject. I wasn't looking to start a debate on the subject--i wasn't indicating that I accept your point of view but disagree.

Similarly, someone entered a defense of Gibson pointing out that much of what you quoted comes from a period when he was deep into his issues with alcoholism and that he seems to have changed since putting that behind him.

That wasn't a convincing argument for me either, but there are defenders of all of the above.

[akiva]

I'd like to point out that I have never started a war.

[Phoebe]

No you have not. I think it matters, the difference between alive and dead in these cases. I look back on the terrible opinions of the dead who did other good things, and somehow their terribleness is mitigated. But today? This is our chance to render the terrible-behaving folk unimpressive and unimportant. Some who do really great things will break through anyway. Nobody will give a poo about Woody Allen and Mel Gibson as "artists", because what they do is not that great. People who love Braveheart SOOOOOOOO much are my friends, so I get that is a thing, but ehh. Not so much for me.

[Cazmonster]

I try to keep the bastards straight in my head, but there are so many of them, I may wind up at a bastard's movie anyway.

I have not seen anything Mel Gibson has done for at least fifteen years, probably longer. I can't think of the last thing I saw that Woody Allen had anything to do with. I can't say I will ever need the entertainment they sell. I can only hope that those behind the money in Hollywood would say the same.

[Zen]

That said, when we go to see a movie with a person performing in it, we are not going to see their politics or their personal beliefs. We're going to see the story, written by the screenwriter, directed by the director, and performed by the actors in the film. The fact that actors and actresses lead lives that put their faults into public view is the only reason we even are having this discussion.

Consider, if you would, if this discussion were taking place in the 1950s and we were a group of people who just discovered that Rock Hudson was actually homosexual and were suggesting that we shouldn't go see his movies?

Now does that sound offensive?

Food for thought...

[El Jefe]

[Zen]

[Mike]

[Zen]

[Mike]

How are you on people simply making a choice not to consume an artist's work simply because they dislike or disagree with them for whatever reason? This can be not watching Jane Fonda movies because of her actions during Vietnam, or boycotting the Dixie Chicks because they said something mean about George Bush. It can be people refusing to watch Woody Allen movies, even though the man has never been convicted of any wrongdoing, or it could be all the people who refused to watch Ellen Degeneres's sitcom anymore after she came out as gay. It can be because they feel the person has gotten off too lightly or escaped punishment entirely after being tried for a crime. People make these sorts of choices every day, and obviously there's no way to stop them. But do you think it's acceptable that people do this? Acceptable that people encourage others to follow their example?

[El Jefe]

[Kyle]

Let me simplify this conversation: so are you cool with Mel Gibson and him being in big, major release movies? Because I'm not.