Public Shaming

[El Jefe]

[Kyle]

I hear you on the Cecil the Lion dentist. I'm torn about it and feel like it crosses the line. The guy is a big game hunter. Many rich people are. I personally know people that have hunted big game-- good, nice, respectable people that I like. I personally have no problem with it, but I also recognize that I'm in the minority here. People can't stand when something bad happens to an animal that we like (i.e., not cows, chickens, pigs, or other foodstocks). So this is one of the examples where society feels like: hey, that's bad enough that even if he's not doing anything public about it, we need to shame him to stop him-- and others-- from engaging in this activity.

And while I might not agree with that in the context of hunters, I can see other places where I would-- people that abuse children being an easy example. Men that refuse to pay their child support. I have no problem with publicly shaming them.

So it seems there's this second line-- separate from the public/private line-- of "how bad is your behavior?"

[Phoebe]

Right, that's why criminal behavior doesn't get a pass. But if you're following the law and doing something privately that other people dislike? I don't think public shaming is appropriate. The Walmart example I took to be referring to a video that was going around wherein people were definitely yelling loud enough to make a public scene. So that's their problem. But if my friend said the same racist things in private? No way should that be tossed up for public shaming.

If what you want to argue is that private racist remarks are so bad that they justify public shaming, that standard almost guarantees people will be punished inappropriately to the crime, and it prevents real opportunities for education. Here is a key example: I consider classrooms, absolutely at K-12 level but also in universities, as a private discussion space even though technically it's "public" in the sense that lots of people you don't know will hear you. But you are being demanded to participate and to learn, and that simply cannot happen in an environment where students risk public shaming for their remarks. Of course, the environment can't be strictly controlled. You can only ask for trust and compliance. Which related to other threads here... requires deep adherence to standards of politeness! And if you're dealing with call-out culture generation, that might be tricky. But if I were a teacher, I would go to the mat for this principle.

[Kyle]

I don't understand why criminal behavior doesn't get a pass. So if you were convicted of shoplifting in college and someone decided to make a big campaign about it online trying to shame you over that now-- that's okay? Because I don't think it is. I don't think we can just say, "Shaming any criminal behavior is fine." In fact- I think that draws out this very line I'm talking about.

And I'm completely okay with publicly shaming someone who drops the n-bomb on someone else in a hateful way in a store- even in a private conversation. That person should be shamed.

[Phoebe]

If the person was convicted and paid the penalty, that IS the "public shaming". It's a public event, unless they're a minor. People can know what was done - that's the deal.

In private conversation all should have an expectation of the basic courtesy that people are not going to expose and ridicule the things said. Again, I think classrooms qualify, and even public fora like this one where ideas are discussed. We are trying out ideas here; public shaming of people for saying things that you don't like, even if they're offensive to you is not appropriate in that situation. If someone is being harassed, the others or the person in charge might decide to expel the harasser from the conversation. I don't think the proper way to handle even that is through public shaming. It leads to consequences that are extremely inappropriate to the level of initial offense, but that's not even the main reason it's wrong.

[Tahlvin]

[Kyle]

[Phoebe]

So trying to think of exceptions, I feel ok about publicly shaming people who publicly shame other people. You know one thing I really, really hate? When you communicate privately with someone (e.g. email, text), and they turn around and share your communication with the rest of the world without permission. At work I always assume this could happen but it's still a big faux pas. In private normal life? No way! The minute someone starts making public comments about something I wrote him privately, so that he can try to publicly shame me? That's the minute I never trust that person again, and also when I stop caring whether he likes what I do with the words I write. For example, I might well prefer to delete things written to any person who has a history of turning around and repeating what I say publicly (worse yet, falsely distorting it out of context) in order to be mean and embarrass me on purpose. That is something people can trust me never, ever to do.

[Tahlvin]

[Phoebe]

Speaking of public shaming that seems like a good idea, I really dislike using Facebook, but one of the things it has taught me is that if you make a friend request of someone and they blow you off for a long period of time, eventually Facebook asks if you want to give up, put your tail between your legs, and rescind your request. That is so much worse than if you could have just forgotten you asked in the first place. So... Yeah, you jerks, you know who you are.

[El Jefe]

I've had more than a few friends mention that I've done this to them. I'm legitimately bad at checking friend requests. For reasons I can't quite understand, it just doesn't seem to grab my attention via the browser.

[Kyle]

This deserves public shaming- and not because of the acts at the end of the video, but just the demands of the staff in the beginning that her son, who she thought needed immediate medical attention, could only see a white doctor:

[Phoebe]

Speaking of public shaming and social media, this video is pretty much toxic for discussion in public. Your crazy relatives do sympathize with the sad plight of having to communicate with a foreign-accented doctor, and your radical friends think the video is solely about black doctors when as far as I know it's at least originally about doctors (in Canada) who are not white and have a foreign accent, even if the general psycho racist problem depicted here also applies regularly to black doctors et al. Say any of that in public and piss off the world. It's great. I'm off to hide in a hole, thanks.

[Kyle]

Having read several articles on this, and from my experience living in Montgomery Alabama-- I don't thing the "accent" thing is anything other than pretense for racism. I know from personal experience that there are many white people in the South that "don't trust important stuff" like medical determinations to be made by people that aren't white. Don't believe the horseshit-- if that woman really was worried that her son's life was in danger, she wouldn't care what race the doctor was. She's a fucking racist.

[Phoebe]

Well, you'd think that's a non-controversial opinion, but some people think the racism vs. black medical professionals is a worse and different thing, and do not appreciate the suggestion that doctors with accents are targets of racism in a comparatively virulent fashion, despite the above video. Meanwhile, others can't grasp why not wanting doctor with accent is a problem.

[Kyle]

Do you ask for a doctor without an accent when you see medical attention?

[Phoebe]

Of course not! What the hell?

[Kyle]

Your posts seemed like you were saying the whole "I have this friend..." thing. I couldn't figure out what you were getting at.

Phew. You're not racist.

[Zen]

[WillyGilligan]

Totally read that as "the people that he was interviewing were in there for research" and wondered what research is worth spending life in prison.

That situation sucks.