Trump

[Elle]

If you haven't read , it's worth a read. I think it is despicable for him to call Sanders the "demagogue of the Left" and I think his entire take on Hillary Clinton is colored by a pronounced sexism that has been evident to me in ALL of Sullivan's work over a span of many years. He badly underestimates Hillary. However, I don't think he OVERestimates Trump, even though his piece ends like this: "In terms of our liberal democracy and constitutional order, Trump is an extinction-level event. It’s long past time we started treating him as such."

I have a lot of Republicans and extremist Christians in my extended family. Most of them are totally reasonable and so we talk about politics. But some of them I stopped talking about politics with a long time ago because it would actually upset me, not because of their opinions per se, but because of the past history I had with the human beings themselves. Knowing what I knew so well about their lives and histories, it was too much to bear that they would adopt certain views - in the mild cases it seemed at least like a defiling of the memories of grandparents we had both loved, and in the worst cases it revealed a hypocrisy so violent and blind that witnessing it made me ill (I'm talking about things like overt racism, or vicious personal attacks on e.g. people who receive welfare from people who once survived only because they received welfare, or vicious personal attacks on gay people from people whose morals are extraordinarily suspect, etc.).

However, my husband's extended family has always enjoyed a kind of light-hearted internal sparring over politics. We graciously accept the derision of those who disagree with us, money is placed on elections in a good-natured way, and everyone seems to realize we're basically on the same team in life because politics isn't so important compared to family. Fast forward to today, when some of our family are unabashed Trump supporters. And now, all of a sudden, they will no longer even talk about it. I realize I often come off like a troll on the internet, but hopefully at least those of you who have met me in person can believe that my political conversations with those who disagree are very, very mild. I am eager to accept the best points of the other side, I sharply modulate my own views and try to keep things light and humorous, I never get upset or engage in any type of underhanded or personal argument, and so on. With the Republicans in my husband's family, we've talked about every dangerous issue up to and including abortion, without any incident. Now that my views are identified as antithetical to Trump's election, that has changed. The mere hint that I might prefer Sanders but grudgingly accept Clinton is enraging. It's not something to be understood or talked over or even mocked! It's wicked. Since I'm a relative, however, the solution is simply to get up and leave the room so we don't have to discuss politics at all. And that really scares me, people, that really scares me.

Also my neighborhood is full of TRUMP yard signs. This shit is real, people; the number of people I know who are going to vote for him in November is as large as the opposition I know, for sure.

[Tahlvin]

Here's a decent post I liked from a Never Trump conservative: https://www.facebook.com/BradThorOffici ... 3576823990

I always figured it was only a matter of time we had a real farce of a presidential election, given the movement towards reality TV and such. I just figured it would be a Kardashian candidate on the Democrat side before it would be someone on the Republican side. The man will say anything he thinks people want to hear, no matter how batshit crazy it is, and whether he believes it or not is anyone's guess. I don't understand how anybody wants to put the keys to the country in this man's control.

[Elle]

I don't either and I do sympathize because if you are a Republican this is basically a hostile takeover of your whole party. I really think they are within their rights to say, no, absolutely not. We are here to win an election, not destroy the Republic, and we don't want to win an election with someone who has repeatedly made clear his disdain for the rule of law. They really should pick someone else. What frustrates me is that the only major GOP figure to come out and say full stop that he refuses Trump is Ben Sasse, who is himself a joke of a leader IMO. He's basically nothing but an obstructionist who wants to burnish his own resume for a White House run, and that's the only reason he bothered going to Nebraska at all. Amazing that people there can't sniff out a phony, but whatever. Their other Senator is a rather awesome Republican gal, Deb Fischer, and assuming that I could have voted for her, I would have. She has gone across the aisle to actually accomplish a bunch of stuff.

[TheMaster]

I am going to start off saying that I voted for Trump in my states primary, and that I intend on voting for him to become our president. So, if he does not prove to be the president that I hope he will be, you can all blame me.

I voted/will vote for Trump for a host of reasons that both liberals and republicans refuse to take into account. I believe (and know) that Trump is not the best man for president. He doesn't fully understand what his role at being the president would actually be (Noted by how often he says he is going to do something that liberals and republicans alike jump on, stating that what is wants to do can't be done by him). However, He is a great businessman. He will have his cabinet around him the whole time. He knows very well that he is not the expert at everything (As much as he wants you to believe he is), and he will (IMHO) surround himself with those experts. Unlike President Obama (Who almost never listens to his experts on particular matters), Trump will listen. He could not have gotten where he is today without being someone that can take the advice of someone else and put it to use.

On another note, when people call him a bully I get excited. We NEED a bully in the white house. The USA use to be a dominating power in the world. President Obama has made us weak. No, we are not weak as in can easily be defeated if we were to fight. We are still a world power, but we need a president that wont back down from threats. President Obama has, time and time again, drawn a line in the sand and say 'if you cross this line...' And then when it gets crosses he will come back and say 'Ok, but really if you cross this line...' Eventually we as a nation are going to back up a draw a line one to many times and find ourselves fighting on our own soil. Trump will not roll over. If he draws a line in the sand he would dare the enemy to even look at it. We need a president like Trump to take on the mantel of former President Theodore Roosevelt, whose foreign policy was 'Speak softly, and carry a big stick'.

My final thought: I for one want to get rid of both the republican and democratic parties. They have been in charge for too long. I think this is just the beginning of, what some people are calling, a silent rebellion. I have no doubt that Clinton will win the Democratic nomination and Trump will win the Republican Nomination. Bernie supports will be the beginning of the end of the democratic party if that be the case, and if the republicans find some crazy way to kick Trump out that will (IMHO) effectively kill the republican party. This election cycle is history in the making. We as a country will no longer be the same, come November. I am not sure what direction it will go, but, note this, IT WILL CHANGE FOR BETTER OR WORSE.

And that is where I stand.

[Elle]

I sympathize with the urge to make some radical changes in the way things are done. I feel like the average person in this country is faring worse and worse and nothing is being done about that. At least Trump sees this. That's the good in him, imo, his populism and what seems like genuine concern for making things better for people who heretofore are being screwed. His message resonates because it's true that workers are suffering, and it is also true that illegal immigration helps business owners a hell of a lot more than it helps most working people. And not just in certain industries, but across the board. So OK, that's the good I can see in Trump.

Meanwhile, he's not just a grudging fan but an active proponent of torture and of the President being able to exercise extraconstitutional authority. He denies climate change and science in general, and he is an open bigot who eagerly incites violence among his supporters. Those are absolute red-line deal breakers for me. I also think he's a crappy businessman. But whatever.

[TheMaster]

You don't get that wealthy in business by being a "Crappy Businessman"

I agree that some of his views are out there when it comes to social issue. Quite frankly I don't believe that we are 100% sure of what those are. He says so many contradicting things when it comes to that. I am not voting him his on social issues. I am voting him in on his leadership ability.

On the note of torture, why shouldn't we be allowed to? If we all played by the same rules then, fine no torture, but we don't. If we don't draw from the same playbook as our enemy, then we will never be able to fight on the same level. That is how we lose wars. That is how we lose people.

[akiva]

[TheMaster]

[Bluedevyl]

For what its worth, the analyses took into account both his personal wealth and the wealth generated by his multitudinous corporations. And keeping those separate is how he can claim to have never declared bankruptcy when his corporation have done it 4 times at least.

Here's the issue. By voting for him because of his "leadership", you're voting for his entire platform. You don't get to pick and choose the stuff you like and the things you would rather ignore.

Pure and simple, socially, the man is a fascist. Contrary to your claim, he has been very clear on his feelings on Muslim-Americans or Mexican-Americans.

I'm not here to change anyone's mind. However, I have seen a lot of this type of talk from his supporters, and it is a fallacy.

You're supporting the whole thing. Own it. Be proud of it. That's your candidate.

[TheMaster]

I am owning it. I accept that i cant and wont find a a candidate that would ever line up with my beliefs 100% Trump is currently the one that has what i am looking for. I take what i want with what i get.

As for the things he says about "Muslim-Americans or Mexican-Americans" have been nothing i dont agree with. He has said nothing about these people that is (IMO) offensive or over the top. Most of what people say he is saying about these people isnt true. He says horrible, yet true, things about Illegal Immigrants and the Muslims that the President is wanting to bring in as refuges. Taking what he says about those people and trying to apply it to every Mexican or Muslim is what make him seems "Evil" or whatever. But as i have stated they are misquoted and untrue.

[Tahlvin]

Wow. I'm probably going to take a cue from Monty Brewster and write-in vote for "None of the Above."

[Mike]

I hate to break this to you, Master, but if there is nothing in Trump's statements about other races/religions that you don't agree with, then you hold some racist and offensive beliefs. And I know you don't believe that for a moment and you have tons of explanations for why they're not racist, but what Trump has said is blatantly bigoted on many fronts. I wish I had more time for this topic, but I welcome a discussion on it in the next couple days.

[TheMaster]

feel free to point out to me speeches of his where he is being racist. I listened to several of them this week and found nothing.

[DMDarcs]

[TheMaster]

I want entire speeches, not gotcha excerpts

[akiva]

[TheMaster]

so you are just going to ignore all of the words in that very left leaning article that show zero hard evidence? he ALLEGEDLY did this or REFUSED to say that. Because he wouldn't come out and say something against someone means he's recist? for the record he said he didn't know anything about white supremacist not the kkk. nothing in that article makes him racist

[akiva]

What about the things you ignored? Saying that Jews love money and are all good bargainers? Saying that nonwhite protesters should be roughed up?

[Eliahad]

Your turn, Master. It's your turn to cite sources.

[akiva]

As to the white supremacist thing--he didn't just say he didn't know about David Duke--he said he knew nothing about white supremacists in general. Which is preposterous.