Pence

[poorpete]

Plus, a midterm with a Pence presidency would give all of us a better idea of where citizens stand on issues. If Trump is still in there, it'll be a bloodbath for the GOP, which for all that is good for Dems in the short term, could give Dems the wrong impression that people are voting for their ideas (which I support) instead of against the worst president since Rutherford B. Hayes.

[Tahlvin]

[Zen]

The best thing Pence could do after the inevitable fall of Trump is exactly what Ford did: Pardon Trump. He'll never get elected then.

[poorpete]

This is my ideal situation of something that could happen and also not cause a Civil War

1. Trump resigns (impeachment may have to wait until 2019, and again, Pence 2017!)
2. Pence & Congress (majority vote in both chambers) picks moderate GOP senator to be new VP (a wise, unifying decision, happened last time). Why not.... Susan Collins! Again, ideal situation. This keeps Paul Ryan and his terrible experiments out of the WH.
3. Stability of a mediocre GOP president for 3.5 years, or if he gets in hot-water, a President Collins.
4. Agree with Zen, pardons for everyone!

I was wrong about 2016, and might be wrong about Snoke being the Emperor, but I hope I'm right about this.

[Mike]

[Zen]

And NOBODY wants that!

[poorpete]

So we are agreed, Pence for president, for as long as he's able to pick and install a quality VP.
Susie Collins

[Zen]

And as long as he sufficiently undermines his chances of getting elected, sure!

[akiva]

If Trump goes and Pence becomes POTUS, it'll be the first time that the 25th amendment will be used that doesn't involve Gerald Ford. Do we have to stop calling it the Gerald Ford amendment?

[Mike]

With all the discussion of "Maybe Pence would be worse" or "Maybe Ryan would be worse," I heard the best response to that which encapsulates my thoughts.

No. Absolutely not, they wouldn't be worse. There may be aspects of them that are trickier to deal with if you dislike the conservative agenda, but with Trump, I worry that his incompetence could actually embroil us in an international conflict that could lead to the use of nuclear weapons. I don't worry about that for Pence or Ryan. That makes them better. With Trump, I worry about him screwing up some international trade issue with his bullying and egomania and accidentally destroying our credit rating and the world economy. Not so with Pence or Ryan. Every single day of Trump's administration has literally been crisis after crisis after crisis, and every one of them has been entirely of Trump's own making. It's eats up all of our energy, and we are distracted from actual work on improving our nation. If these "crises" are what happens when Trump deals with just the day to day mundanities of being president, what would happen if their were a real crisis of any magnitude not of his making? I don't want to find out, because maybe it'd be just like any other president, but maybe he would fan the flames and make things orders of magnitude worse. Either way... I really don't want to roll those dice. I don't worry about that with Pence or Ryan any more than I'd worry about it for Clinton or Obama or Bush.

For me, it's no contest. Pence or Ryan would easily be better than Trump.

[Mike]

One other thing I hadn't thought of: this comes from Yancey. Let's assume that Trump just keeps digging himself in deeper and deeper with his own words and bravado and inability to think or admit that he might have done something wrong. Let's assume he continues losing popularity and more and more GOP politicians start distancing themselves from him in preparation for the midterms. Let's assume that the writing on the wall becomes clear and everyone starts to believe that Trump is really going to be removed from office.

Assuming all that, Republicans are going to start elevating and sucking up to Pence. They'll want to be in good with him, but they also want to make sure people view him as extremely qualified for the job, that he'll make a good president, that he'll be a real champion for conservative values, etc. That's just smart.

How will Trump respond to that? How will Trump respond to people pushing him away and lavishing praise on Pence? He'll still be the president at this point, so what will he do? My guess is he's going to see Pence as a rival and a traitor and he will do everything in his power to denigrate the man. This will be a sign of disloyalty, and so far, we know Trump doesn't stand for that. How ugly will he be able to make things?

Already, he's stirring up his base against the liberal media and the Democrats. He's declaring this as fake news and a witchhunt and political persecution. As more and more Republicans step up to publicly doubt him, I have no doubt that he will turn his vitriol on them too. Hopefully, he becomes too ineffective to actually do much other than scream about it, but if it is within his power, I think he'd rather see this country devolve into a civil war, with his loyalists rising up to defend his honor, rather than ever admit that anything he did was wrong or less than triumphant. He'd rather see it all burn if the alternative is him going down as a criminal failure who had to resign the presidency only halfway through his first term.

I don't believe it will get that bad. I think have Mueller on the case is the best thing Rosenstein could have done. At least when his word comes down on this, I think most of America will agree that he was fair and did his best, and we'll take his word for it whichever way the chips fall. We may not be happy with the results of the investigation, but we'll accept it and move on and start rebuilding.

[Phoebe]

I think the people saying President Orrin Hatch have the right idea. Pence is lying about what he knew about Flynn, and I would bet if money came in from Russia, Ryan knew and didn't stop it.

[Mike]

Even if all that's correct--a potentially big IF--it would depend on in what order they dropped. If Ryan steps down early (or if the GOP sees doom coming for him) we get a new Speaker before Trump and Pence disappear. Let's say Pence withdraws next week to cut short the associated scandal... how quickly can Trump have a new vice-president selected? Now we have a scandal-free vice president still hand-picked by Trump.

[Mike]

Dammit. Now how am I supposed to steer my horse when the cart's in front of it?

[Phoebe]

I'd guess this scenario has been worked through. Can't have options open for pardons, choosing successors, etc. Jared Kushner apparently arranged the 100 billion plus arms deal with Saudi Arabia, where he and Ivanka are now. What scares me is how public opinion works as this plays out. Lots of Trump voters, batshit crazy out of touch with reality, heavily armed, and deeply invested in not having been conned.

[Phoebe]

This kind of thing () makes a person particularly ill when reading about the present pattern of deportations - i.e. grab the low hanging fruit of vulnerable people who have been trying to play by the legal rules. People who were brought here as toddlers, have no connection to their place of birth, and have filed legal requests and turned up for meetings as required. Where are the stories about how their U.S. employers were arrested and fined? Hmm. But yeah, no ethical problem whatsoever to sell visa approvals to the highest Chinese bidder...

[Phoebe]

This hypocrite decided to turn the Jewish dead into Christians for his Holocaust remembrance statement. He is a terrible person, truly bad.

[mimekiller]

[Phoebe]

You would think, but no. It goes deep into layers, that bullshit. They have their own language and sadly I'm a translator.

[bralbovsky]

At this stage, the only thing that would satisfy me is a full Romanov.

Nunes has basically crossed the treason line, but they all knew; they're accessories after the fact at best.
As we discuss, the executive is dismantling and enfeebling the FBI, and virtually anyone who might dare to hold it to account. So when this charade is finally over, what will be left standing?


I hate it when innocents die. But innocents are dying now, in Syria, which we've abrogated to the Russians, in Ukraine, which will never be whole, in China, in ALL those places where petty and not so petty dictators see that, yes, you really can fool enough people and get away with it.

I forgive all of you who haven't had New York front row seats for Trump's entire career as a narcissist and misogynist and racist and thief. You're welcome to your benefit of the doubt, but the goddam place is on fire, and the firefighters, the republican ones anyway, have been bought off to suggest that what we really need are new smoke detector batteries, and if it's on fire it's the previous owner who set it, and whatever cover story of the week might buy them more time to empty the vaults.
The shock, for me, is that despite predictions that exactly this would happen, everyone is so bloody incredulous.
You elect a juggler, he's going to juggle, you elect a grifter, he's going to get his biggest jones lying to your face, and daring you to call him out.
I hope Melania has an AK under her dress.