Spider-Man: The Rant

[El Jefe]

So I figured if I'm going to return, I should return with a rant. So here it is, cross-posted from elsewhere today.

Long comics rant warning.

Since I was asked twice in the last day, let's cover why I strongly dislike Spider-Man. It is similar to the reason I avoided the hell out of reading Transmetropolitan and Watchmen for so long. I spent way too long dealing with hardcore fans of those properties (and Spidey) who had some...mistaken conceptions about the material. And being the "good" kind of hardcore fans, they wanted to make sure to tell me how nothing else in the entire universe compared to this material and more of the lovely One True Wayism.

So back to Spidey. The fans that I encountered were generally of a similar age group to myself, and seemed to grow up familiar with most of the same non-comic versions of Spidey I did. But when I started really delving into comics, in particular the formative storylines and eras, I discovered what had always bothered me about Peter Parker. When fans start to talk about Parker, they quickly begin to talk about how much they love the idea of the struggles in high school storylines. Funny thing about that...Peter graduated high school in an issue from 1965 (28 issues in, to be honest). He graduated college in a 1978 issue. His actual high school years in the comics were three years out of a 50+ year publication history. Most of the fans I've dealt with weren't actually around (much like myself) for those high school issues.

So, largely influenced by the cartoons and video games of the more recent timeframes (let's say late 70's forward), the fans seem to automatically associate Spidey and Parker with high school. The same folks will start to talk about all the storylines they love out of Spider-Man's history: the death of the Staceys, Kraven's hunts, the first Clone Saga, and so on. Huh, you know what they all have in common? HE'S NOT IN HIGH SCHOOL.
Spidey has some really notable and quality storylines. The LSD addiction issues for Harry Osborn are rather significant in the evolution of comics. The Venom/Carnage symbiote, Clone Saga, New Avengers (a real highlight in my opinion), and so on. None of them have any bearing on a high school student, as so many other mediums have depicted Parker. His best stories work because he's an adult (albeit a young one) dealing with learning how to live and grow. There's more freaking teenager issues in the X-men. Parker was married in the 80's, graduated high school before most of the Gen-X fans were born, and has already had children (and subsequently lost them). He's revealed his identity, and undergone more in-depth, mature changes than most Marvel characters combined. All as an adult.

Stop with the Parker in high school bullshit. It's not what made the character work. That's the Spider-Man I hate. The actual one...yeah, while not my favorite, I can respect the hell out of what he's brought to the comic medium.

[Cazmonster]

Okay - but how about the Civil War Spiderteen? The kid was great and his chemistry with both Iron Man and Captain America was top notch.

[El Jefe]

The film version? It's been a few years since I've read the Civil War comic. I only recall Parker, again as an adult, in the comic. Which, incidentally, led to another great storyline for the character, where he switched on registration, going so far as to pull of his mask and do the reveal. (Which then led to one of his not so great arcs in the whole "deal with the Devil" debacle).

It was cute in the film. Sure, it brought some humor. But personally, I don't feel it has near the long-term potential that an adult (even a college student) Parker does. And frankly, while I thought the young actor seemed solid, it still brings back overtones of the incredibly cheesy Tobey Macquire Spidey for me. All of that could have been avoided, and you still could have managed the same humor without the the pitfalls of doing the high school bit.

The bigger concern with the high school Spidey in the MCU has to do with the limitations of what Hollywood can create. This isn't an industry that inspires a lot of trust with teenage heroes. The track record for films with that age group is pretty poor, and I feel it tends to drive the quality of the material down quite a bit. Will Holland make it work? Probably. Will it be a Spidey that I actually find interesting? Probably not.

[Cazmonster]

Yeah, I was talking about the film. I was solidly reading DC at the time of Civil War. And now that DC has decided to be reboot city I read a handful of Marvel books, along with Bitch Planet and Rat Queens.

Oh, and Red 0ne. It's gorgeous and fun and set in the Seventies, so it is solid win on all fronts for me.

[Elle]

Not a huge fan of Spiderman because it always seems like the best thing about him is his cool costume and web, but beyond that - ??? I assume the reason people identify him with his high school phase is that he's generally angsty. His concerns seem youthful. He has never seemed comfortable with himself at all, not because of anguish over his powers as you see with some other superheroes who are conflicted about their ability to cause both good and bad and not necessarily control those outcomes. He just seems uncomfortable, and then I as the audience feel uncomfortable. This came to a head with the recent movie series, as I am not feeling Tobey Macguire as an actor (nor Kristen Dunst) and he solidified whatever je ne sais quoi I don't like about Spiderman. In that sense he was a "good" one. In short, I feel like Spiderman should be cooler than he ends up being, and that kind of sucks.

[Cazmonster]

The Civil War Spiderman is my favorite one to date. The kid is great. His interactions with 'for real' superheroes are fantastic. I really hope his standalone movie is as much fun.

[El Jefe]

[El Jefe]

[Mike]

It would have been perfect if they ditched the shaky cam.

I did not watch 3D.

[El Jefe]

I finally figured out bugged me so much about the ending of Civil War. Reika said this during a discussion "Tony is the one who ALWAYS wears his heart on his sleeve."

And that's absolutely true. So, we've got a fellow who has gone out of his way to kind of mention how his dad was always a dick. We've got a fellow who hasn't taken the time to drop more than a token reference about his deceased mother. He's gone on at length about his fear of the larger universe, about the value of trying to exceed your expectations (and grasp), and the role of power and force in societal control.

So...why the fuck does "I. Don't. Care." happen? At all? So you're totally cool with Barton killing folks while under mind control. But boy, same shoe on another foot and you have the kind of lost child meltdown that makes Bruce Wayne look like a rookie at this parent murder angst shit. It's a swerve for the sake of being swervy. It doesn't tie into virtually anything the character has showcased so far, it doesn't fall within the reactions the character has shown so far, and it plays off as if you want to set up Stark as a future villain. That whole last sequence makes less and less sense each time I look at it. Most of my other complaints are really minor nitpicks that spawn from my dissatisfaction with this one aspect of the film. It's a baffling gaff in what has mostly been internally consistent vision from the Russo pair.

[Elle]

The bumped thread reminded me: I think it's because of the TV show that people have this prevailing misperception of the Spiderman character you mention, or because we read only certain comics and not others. I never read stories where he didn't seem angsty or other more complex issues arose, and then exposure to TV doubtless sealed the impression. I'd like to see alternative stories sometime to get a sense of what im missing.

[DMDarcs]

Did you ever notice that in some of the really early comics (I'm talking Amazing Spider-Man somewhere in the teens), Peter Parker is kind of a dick? Flash Thompson tries to include him in things, and Petey blatantly refuses. Or Flash will be sad, and Petey will decide to cheer him up, but then at the last second pulls the football away? I mean, I know he want's to keep his Spider-Man identity secret, so he distances himself from any pro Spidey rallys that Flash runs - but when Flash is literally the only one supporting Spidey, Peter still treats him like crap. Maybe it's just a sign of the times though - I notice that a lot of Marvel superheros during the early sixties are dicks, and they're all being written by the same guy.

[El Jefe]

Flash isn't the only one. Peter's also kind of a dick (at an approximately 7/10 ratio) to whoever he's involved with romantically. Peter's kind of a dick a whole lot of times. The whole "with great power..." sequence in most of the comics and films drives this point home. It's the same kind of blatantly surface tripe that comes with the crowd who wears the "Support Our Troops" ribbons and doesn't have any interest in hearing about the actual problems veterans face. "But I'm supporting the cause!"

[mimekiller]

Jeff any new thoughts on this topic now that Spider Man Homecoming is easily the best spider man film ever made?