Harassment at Conventions

[Cazmonster]

So, I vaguebooked this earlier tonight and this feels like a safe enough place to vent my feelings before working them into something I can post publicly.

I've been preparing to demo MARS NEEDS COWS to a larger audience at OddCon at the end of the month. Felt like it would be a great place to know first hand how it plays among a wider audience than the folks I can get at FLGS, Pegasus, and Mike's remarkable work with his group. I then hear that the guest of honor for the convention is pulling out because someone who has harassed her was going to be on panels with her.

That this particular person is still part of the convention committee is not acceptable. I am not going to put my efforts into making their show any better if they're willing to keep him. I'm really angry, because I already spent the money on the tickets, and I was looking forward to meeting new people.

I've gotten a chance to vent. I still need to figure out how to put my voice out there in a way that's useful. MARS NEEDS COWS needs more visibility, but this is not the way to get it.

Related Links:

[Cazmonster]

Well now...

Alex Merrill‎ to Odyssey Con Madison WI 04/12

We, the Convention Committee of Odyssey Con, deeply regret losing Monica as a Guest of Honor, especially in the way the last twenty-four hours have unfolded. Odyssey Con strives to be a warm and welcoming place for all people to express themselves and engage in fandoms. We took a long and hard look at the issue of having Jim Frenkel continue to be a member of our convention committee when he was banned from WisCon in 2012. Our position at that time was to look at our policy on harassment and ensure that any situation that may take place at our convention would be dealt with professionally. We now have an ombudsman, anonymous reporting procedures, and a very detailed policy. There have been no complaints filed against Mr. Frenkel from attendees of Odyssey Con. However, in light of Monica's email, the following changes have been made: Mr. Frenkel is no longer a member of our ConCom in any capacity, he has no position of authority in the convention proper, and he is not a panelist or lecturer. He has the right to purchase a badge and attend the convention, but as of this writing, I do not know if he is planning to do that.

I personally wish to apologize for the mishandling of our response to Monica's concerns. It has never been our intent to minimize any guest's complaints. Odyssey Con is an all volunteer organization staffed by people who have many strengths, but not all of us are great communicators.
I have already reached out to Monica to personally apologize for the email response she received from one of our ConCom members and for the subsequent posting of email chains publicly. This exchange was not an example of Odyssey Con as a whole, which is run by fans, for fans. I hope to have a continued dialogue with you all.

[Phoebe]

I'm reluctant to comment on this because I'm not interested in defending this guy. However, I have some questions about what policy should be like in communities when these problems arise. It's one thing to remove yourself from the situation when you don't want to interact with another person that you feel unsafe or uncomfortable around; it's another to insist that person be removed from your sphere. It makes sense in this particular case above, because the person was the invited guest of honour and that puts her in a reasonable position to say, I don't want to have to sit on a panel with someone who has harassed me in the past. Essentially, if you don't want your guest of honor to withdraw and have an embarrassing situation, then you had better respect those concerns.

On the other hand, what happens if they are both invited to an event with equal standing as attendees? This is a question motivated by various real-life concerns. For instance, what if you were inviting a divorced couple that has a history of acrimony, and each has accused the other of very bad behavior? What if you were inviting people in a situation where one person says the other is a harasser and the other one disputes it, and there's no way that you can really adjudicate between the two effectively? I mean, there are people who will accuse you of harassing them if you so much as put ten words together in a sentence to say to them politely, and you have never been within a hundred miles of them. And then there are situations where someone is trying to bravely endure serious physiological and other responses to a former harasser or assailant, and nobody should have to go through that.

The following issue is a different thing entirely, but I think it's important to preserve the possibility that people can forgive others for bad behavior, and the choice to do so must be respected.

[Phoebe]

Oh and, after struggling to figure out what nuance a position on this should have, I flip through the headlines and discover DeVos not only is unwilling to enforce Title IX provisions (and I don't mean situations where there are real differences of opinion about how to interpret the language, but just in general doesn't want to do it), but has hired another person who is a truly horrid, pinched little soul and one of the worst choices imaginable to run a civil rights job for which she is 100% unsuited. The basic guiding principle of Trump administration hiring is: if you absolutely make it your life's work to destroy and oppose some piece of government function, that is the very thing you will be hired to run.

[Cazmonster]

Thanks for replying. My feeling on the matter is that if someone has been accused of harassment at a convention, you, as a member of the convention committee, need to take steps to make sure the harasser is not part of your organization (assuming of course the accusation is valid). Defending someone who's been a piece of garbage in the past and more, keeping them part of the group putting on the convention is not at all good.

I am going to go to the show. I'm going to take their apology as legitimate. I hope I'm not wrong in doing so.

[Kyle]

Here's my only issue with this: this guy sounds like a verifiable creep. But I can't figure out what he's actually supposed to have done. I've read a dozen arguments that talk about accusations against him as a serial harasser, but I never found any specifics other than one article that talked about how he stared at women's boobs when he talked to them (which is definitely not okay- and something I live in fear of being perceived as doing). I'm assuming the accusations are that he was sexually propositioning women, but I didn't see any details. So it's hard to say if this is the right approach-- or even what the right approach should be-- without actually knowing what he did, or purportedly did.

[Cazmonster]

That article has a picture of him looking the writer square in the chest.

[Phoebe]

[Kyle]

[Cazmonster]

This is what Monica had to say about him. I trust her.

"I was invited to be a guest of honor in 2016. At the time, a known harasser was working at the con. I, personally, had several uncomfortable interactions with this individual and I did not feel safe around him. At first, this individual was my guest liaison, and I had considered pulling out of the convention as a result. Thankfully, my point of contact was changed and I never had to speak with this individual again. I assumed that he was no longer working at the convention following this act.
...I have judged his behavior for myself, and I do not feel safe being in the same room with him let alone the same hotel. This blatant disregard of my concerns also worries me that should any new harassment complaints arise, that they would not be dealt with appropriately. I am extremely disappointed that a member of the concom would be more valued that an invited guest, and though I recognize the the invitation is an honor I cannot and do not find this resolution acceptable."

[Kyle]

I mean- and I'm not trying to sound harsh- but I don't trust her anymore than I trust him. They're both just random strangers. There seems to be a bunch of people that have a bunch of strong opinions, which would mean those are based on facts. But I haven't seen any facts, so I can't form an opinion on this one way or the other.

Well, that's not true. I have an opinion about the fucking terrible response the con has had to this whole situation- because apparently they are aware of what the actual allegations are too. And it seems they did a "This is going to be the way it is, shut up... oh wait... people at large are going to be aware of this? Oh goodness, we're SO SORRY!" which is chickenshit. I feel good about that opinion.

[Phoebe]

Does it matter, though? If I'm invited to guest lecture and find out a panelist is someone who has sexually harassed me, it's ok for me to refuse to attend on that basis*, and understandable that people who wanted me there will be pissed off should the organizers do nothing. It's that simple. It doesn't require factual investigation of What Really Happened.

Suppose it's a pure she-said, he-said, with no corroborating stories, unlike in this real situation. The invited keynoter gets to win these, which is how it is every time a man with a bad but undocumented history of harassing people is the invited keynoter (more common).

* Note I would never do that because I'd rather stare those MFs down from the podium, winning. It's a unique, rare delight.

[Kyle]

[Cazmonster]

Kyle, I've presented what I can find at this point. Going forward, you'll have to do your own work to form your opinion. I'll give you the names I know and the conventions where he was accused of harassing people: Jim Frenkel, Monica Valentinelli, WisCon and OddCon.

[Kyle]

[Cazmonster]

I was frustrated because I presented the pieces that I had at my disposal and that wasn't good enough for you. Rather than trying to get into a fight about what I could find, I thought the better way to go forward was for you to do your own research. And you've done that and you can't find what you're looking for to make an opinion yourself about Frenkel, which is fine.

The real difficult part for me is that I've got my project which I'm trying to get off the ground. Mike has been great about running the game. My brother's been great as well. I've had two playtests without Jason, which I think went well, but the game really needed work. Now, I have a chance to spend a whole day with a bunch of gamers trying out the game. But the convention where I could run it has done some crooked shit with somebody who's been accused of harassment enough to get fired from his editor job at TOR.

Do I go and worry that my project is gong to wind up tainted by association with Oddcon? Do I not go and have to wait months for another chance to run it for more than a handful of people. I feel like this little foundation I've built is now on quicksand. And, if I am on quicksand because somebody older than my mom doesn't understand basic human decency when interacting with women, I am upset.

[Cazmonster]

I did some more looking at some of these articles and people want to know the specifics of what Frenkel did.

This is my response - if it had been a fight or if Frenkel had battered someone (and I'm trying to use battery in the legal definition) would it matter the nature of the battery? Would an open hand slap somehow be more or less offensive than a kick?

I don't think the nature of the harassment matters in this case, or in any case. The administrative body running the organization who would either relate the issue to law enforcement or sanction the harasser is the only other party that would need details in order to make their decision.

[Stan]

This guy sounds creepy and I'm glad he's suffering consequences. I think part of the outcry in this case is a reaction to just how flabbergastingly common harassment has been at cons and how much creeps could get away with. Famous people have done much worse and gotten away with it. Isaac Asimov was a serial groper. Harlan Ellison publicly grabbed an author's breast and has probably done more I haven't heard about. GRRM is said to be creepy in person. I've heard icky things about Ed Greenwood. If you dig, the list grows.

[Cazmonster]

I want the list to come to an end here in Madtown. Hopefully, OddCon is starting the process.

[Kyle]