Trump

[Phoebe]

Forget it, I take back what I wrote in resp. to Kyle. I'm weary and have little rope left.

[Mike]

I don't have to understand Trump voters, because I can think of a dozen reasons why they voted for Trump, and all of them still make them bad people. No need to actually talk to them.

[Phoebe]

Ok, that person's writing is kind of incoherent so I cannot be sure what he's saying. However, he says people in politics or seeking office DO need to understand Trump voters. Do the rest of us need to talk to them and find reasons why they're not bad people? Does it really help me when I hear that someone I work with was just so horrified by a tape of HRC laughing about getting a child rapist off without a long sentence that she couldn't vote for her? No, now I am aware that my coworker is such a huge idiot that she thinks that was a tape of HRC chortling about helping a molester. Did that help anyone? Ok, she's not necessarily a bad person, but, an idiot.

[Phoebe]

Now we have two Trump transition TV surrogates appealing to Japanese internment as a justification for the new administration's policies with respect to dealing with immigrants and Muslims generally. When Trump floated the idea of a Muslim registry during the campaign, people were shocked, reminded of the parallels with Jews in Nazi Germany, and wondered if he was serious. He was; he doubled down on the same statement. Then after criticism became more serious, he claimed that a reporter had made it all up even though we can all see for ourselves. So there's that. I would have thought people who voted for him were already responsible for taking that sort of thing into account and explaining why - if at all - they differ from him on this point.

Now that he has people on TV reminding us that the Supreme Court decision that supported WWII internment is still in effect, and now that he has a white supremacist reactionary as his main advisor, is it okay for us to start assuming that Trump voters are semi-consciously aware of what is going on and need to account for themselves with respect to such things? We can continue to disagree about whether abstention or a vote for someone else would have been worse, other things being equal, but is it far-fetched to insist that people be accountable for this sort of thing? What if we do a little racial profiling of all the terrorists who have attacked Americans from the right, and demand that everyone fitting THAT profile be placed on a registration list, just in case? So we can monitor them? Are Trump voters cool with that?

Is there ever a point at which their moral compass can be called into question? What if the Muslim registry is implemented? Do these people EVER need to account for themselves, for supporting this? Can we EVER presume that something is seriously morally wrong with blindness to this sort of thing? If not now, when exactly?

[Tahlvin]

You're painting with pretty broad brush strokes there. Almost half of voters voted for the guy; how do you expect them to individually let him know the parts of his agenda they are for or against? How is my 73 year old mother, who is not racist, hates some of what Trump said, never wanted him as the Republican candidate, but is staunchly pro-life and felt a vote for Hillary would condemn countless unborn children to death by abortion, how is she supposed to convince you and every other non-Trump voter that she's not a racist, white supremacist, pro-facist?

[Mike]

Look, I have lots of concerns and lots of fears about what could happen during Trump's presidency, and since Republicans now control the House, the Senate, the executive branch, 31 governorships, and 33 state legislatures, I think the most reasonable course moving forward is to stand in the middle of the street screaming, "You're all assholes! You've doomed us all!" And since two-thirds of my community voted for Trump, I can rest assured that the message is reaching the right people.

[Mike]

And leaving my sarcasm aside there for a moment, my real problem here is that you and a lot of other people on the left right now seem really concerned with making sure we get to blame the Trump voters. It's super important that we nail down exactly when and how we get to tell them all they're all a bunch of racists and/or idiots and that this is all their fault. In fact (and this is not from you personally) I've seen several posts that indicate that it's super important for all the Trump voters to recognize that this is a total cluster-fuck and for them to acknowledge that and accept responsibility for it.

Jesus, it's barely been two weeks. The man doesn't take office for two months yet. There's no way you're getting Trump voters to decide NOW that this was all a huge mistake and somehow apologize for it. That's not how human beings work.

Why is it so important that we figure out how to assign blame? Why is it so important to make sure we get to put labels on our anger and try to make others accept our labels for them? This is pointless and non-productive. In fact, it's counter-productive. They fucking own everything! EVERYTHING! And you can't even talk about a revolution, because they have all the guns too. So what are we going to do about it?

Sitting around talking about how the Trump voters fucked up and how they're all racists and how they're all responsible for this mess doesn't affect them in any way except to piss them off and make them dig their heels in deeper, because the liberals still don't get it. The Democrats have never understood what they're going through and this kind of blame game only reinforces that notion for them. The left is out of touch and has no clue about the real struggles of working families. Yes, I get that that's not actually true, but it's THEM that you have to convince, not me. Christ... come up with a plan. Show them real alternatives that offer them hope and don't involve Steve Bannon's alt-right army. Show them a better plan that can make America greater than it's ever been without the racial and class divisions.

When did compassion and understanding become too hard for the left? We're all about inclusivity. We're all about reaching out. We're all about helping the people who've been fucked over by the system. Except for this group. They voted for the only person that seemed to address their concerns. And they won. And now as the minority party, we seem to want to make sure they all admit how badly they fucked up before we're willing to work with them. We're a bunch of idiots.

Fuck this. I'm completely ranting now. I'm sure half of the above is completely incoherent. I don't care.

[Phoebe]

I'm not sure why you assume moral accountability - which is required, and you have given me no reason to suppose it isn't - involves berating people in a counterproductive fashion. It's very simple: ask a question.

"Are you okay with all the Muslims in America being put on the registry so that we can protect ourselves better against Islamic terrorism?"

Yes, it is a reasonable presumption that most people who voted for Trump would say yes to this question. If the answer is no then we can proceed to have a conversation about how we might achieve common goals without reaching to such extremes. If the answer is yes then we have another simple question as a follow-up:

"Are you okay with members of [insert that person's relevant group here] being treated exactly the same way?"

Some pro-lifers are terrorists who have committed numerous acts of murder on our soil. Same has been true for members of the military, the NRA, Germans, Irish, and other ethnicities. Perhaps they are just a bit more prone to violence? And other bad behaviors like alcoholism? What - this makes no sense for 80 year old grandma or 5 year old child? But then, why for the same people in another group?

Being asked to answer that question is where the moral accountability happens. You don't get to pretend the question doesn't apply to you now. The discussion of internment camps is happening now. Why does the accountability wait until January? At Thanksgiving, why can't I ask "are you ok with what we did to George Take? Y or N?"

And why must I have compassion for people who have perfectly comfortable lives and still need to lash out at innocent others? Where are these suffering Trump voters you and others keep dreaming up? Their avg incomes are far higher than HRC voters!!!

[Phoebe]

[Tahlvin]

I'm done. I wish you luck, and let me know how your approach works for winning hearts and minds.

[Phoebe]

Even supposing persuasion is the only thing that matters here, persuasion is not always about winning people over like flies with honey. Sometimes it requires waking up to reality. I want to know if people are morally okay with the Japanese internment, as it is being appealed to right now as precedent for a Muslim registry. I think most Trump voters are ok with the proposed registry and haven't the faintest idea how that began with Jews in Germany or what the U.S. did to imprison its own citizens during the war. People don't change their minds on big stuff when given compassionate platitudes and excuses for being stupid. Sometimes you need to be cross-examined directly, so you can see that action x and belief y are totally incompatible with your supposed commitment to not supporting discrimination and fascism. I'm not going to be mean to people or try to shame them in public, but I am going to ask that simple question: Do you think a registry is okay? The alt right is very clear: it is ok to say yes because being bigoted in supposed defense of white people is morally ok. That is the view we are up against. It is anathema to the good and to pluralistic democracy. It's time to take a stand on that, and I mean each person needs to decide, not just the Trump voter. Decide now, before something like 9-11 repeats. How far would you go to defend your tribe? Who gets to be a member of your tribe? This is what's at stake.

I'd like to know how anyone thinks we're supposed to change the mind of Trump voters on this stuff by cheerfully tolerating all the different, bigoted views.

[Stan]

Phoebe, I sympathize but I'm not sure if it's going to work here.

Personally, I'm sick of so many evangelicals who continually prove that they're Christian In Name Only. Many of them are Reagan Democrats, who were mainly people who switched parties after the civil rights movement for racist reasons.

[Mike]

I was feeling a little frustrated and unhinged after I wrote that this morning, so I came in here fulling intending to erase it all, even though I normally don't pull that kind of bullshit. But I realized that I feel so much better after getting it all out. It was cathartic. It may not be the most level-headed expression of my views, but it's a pretty honest snapshot of an emotional state. I'm going to leave it on that.

[Phoebe]

So one of the things you said specifically about me is that I'm really concerned to make sure we get to blame the Trump voters. There are at least two ways to take that. One is that you think I plan on going around doing this. Well, does asking "are you ok with a registry?" count as blame?

The other is a less literal meaning, like I just want to say Trump voters will be responsible for bad things. Well, they kind of are, right? Who else would be? Liberals, for making white people feel excessive discomfort over white guilt? That's certainly how some Trump voters want to spin it right now: "You got a problem with my vote? Well I'm sick of having to be PC, so yeah, burn it all down!" Who is to blame for that kind of childish character flaw?

I'm sorry that I deleted my reply to Kyle, but it wouldn't have accomplished any good. I am full of that sort of bullshit. I am also sorry I yanked my post in this thread about what I had to do yesterday and the day before at work. I have even better reasons not to broadcast that, in hindsight. All I can say is that the issues we are discussing are not at all abstract for me. I am afraid for real of the kind of people described above. Their movement is getting stronger; it is coming into my real life now.

[Mike]

[Mike]

[Phoebe]

Good to know AG nominee uses racist slurs. Wow. In case the prolifers are still in doubt about the white supremacy part... Can you imagine him enforcing Voting Rights as AG? LOL and so much not funny.

[Phoebe]

Cast of Hamilton makes President-Elect dance on Twitter like puppet. Gonna be a tough nut for Putin and Netanyahu and Xi to crack, I tell ya!

Meanwhile, (and your pre-holiday shopping, depending on what you're cooking), but you do. The tender shoots of eternal love between the owner of this business and myself are being thwarted by the fact that we're both married, but you never know. I'm not going to close off the option because we may end up alone and in a nursing home together - who can say? Basically, he is a champion on every possible level, he is an expert in the history of spices, a world-traveler and philanthropist, a huge supporter of educational causes, and he has been refusing to tolerate placid racism for many years now. BUY SPICES, that's the main thing here.

It helps that his spices are the best you can get anywhere, and this was true long before I knew the owner was such a badass winner at life.

[Stan]

[Cazmonster]