Screen-Free Childhood

[Phoebe]

So what I take myself to be arguing for is giving kids that multiplicity of experience as opposed to doing the "one thing" they do so much of nowadays, i.e. sitting around passively before a screen. That is a one-true-way position only if you are insisting kids generally need to spend lots of time sitting around passively before a screen, in which case, ok, we really disagree.

Regarding TV and our polity, we have literally elected as president a reality TV star whose relentless manipulation of TV media, after years of others like the charming O'Reilly doing the same, has resulted in a situation where people just utterly reject factual reality and the whole fact-based game of living. That's causally complicated, but TV has its role in the mix.

I am not trying to pick a fight here; that is something I rarely want to do. For a recent, ready example of the difference, I WAS actually fighting with Bone about genocide. And now I don't even want to fight with him about it, after having reached a point where at least I understand where he's coming from and why. I am accustomed to the fact that the way that I discuss things or argue about things with people on the Internet is usually perceived to be a case of me wanting to pick a fight. I am probably never going to understand why that is exactly. All I can tell you is that... well, people may know you for a long time and continue to think that you're some kind of troll who wants to pick a fight.

[Bonefish]

It could be the way you come across. I mean, I come across as an "angry" person all the time. I don't have any advice there. I just said "eff it" and am now an angry happy person.

[Phoebe]

That's a good plan. Your style doesn't bother me at all. We disagreed on actual substance that bothered me, but the rest? Bah, no problem. I have my theories about why this happens. My online life is radically different from real life. I have gotten used to it. However, I will say it actually affects even my cold, icy heart when people who should know better impute negative motives to me. Or worse yet, when they assume they know why I've done something they disliked, and then never even bother to ask, or find out, or communicate about the thing further. That's not really relevant to the present moment, just an old word from the icy heart.

[Phoebe]

As an amendment to the above, I rely almost totally on the communication of sentiment in person to mitigate the off-putting way I string words together. Having developed this system of navigating the social world, the down side is that it fails whenever all you're doing is stringing together words on a page. Or worst of all, whenever you feel the need to erase or edit those words, which is a need I feel with overpowering force and must combat all the time.

Everything I say irritates me.
I say a lot of shit, too much of it.
Ergo, constantly bothered by it.
I want to somehow erase myself from the world by erasing the stupid.
If I have doubts this goes double.
I have doubts always.
If the doubts have a moral valence this goes triple.
Most things have a moral valence.

[Iantha]

[Phoebe]

That is great, as it sounds like she is having many good learning experiences. But I'm not sure what the disagreement is. This is the same question I was having for Kyle. If the good of ready access to the internet is gaining information that helps to achieve other, better ends, then by definition it sounds like there are other, better ends, and that lots of time is being spent doing those other things. Like painting - one might learn enormous things from studying painting online, but then one must paint, and paint more than study painting, yes? I learned to crochet solely through the internet but I spend a lot more time crocheting than watching people crochet, know what I mean?

[Tahlvin]

Again, the disagreement is the extreme to which the guy in the article took the matter, completely banning "screens" for his kids before age 10. He's essentially saying that he made the determination that any value that could be derived from those screens, such as the values Kyle, Iantha, El Jeffe, and I have expressed, are not important enough for him allow those screens, even in moderation, at those earlier ages. That's what I, at least, disagree and take issue with. He's arguing against one extreme, allowing the kids on the devices far too much, but he's taking it to the other extreme and not allowing the devices at all. We're not arguing FOR that other extreme, we're arguing FOR the middle ground that says the devices have value and can be used with degrees of moderation. Arguing for the value of the tool he's saying he has banned doesn't seem to be a strawman to me. But my mind certainly doesn't work the same way that yours works, so we very well could be having a conversation about a completely different subject and I don't even know that. I avoided psych/sociology classes like the plague in college, and was happy just to remain in my world of mathematics and statistics.

[Phoebe]

That makes sense, thank you for explaining. I kind of assumed people weren't​ arguing with his version of this plan but mine, but obviously the one I presented for consideration is going to be getting the consideration. For Jim aged five, I do aspire to a summer without them, knowing that is unlikely to be how it actually plays out (while getting #1 to put down the phone more by choice than by misplacing). The idea is that striving for zero hopefully gets me a lot closer to the right amount, and motivates more doing of the things like hiking, biking, painting etc. At least we have the musics covered, and swimming. But he's a specific case. I should have started the thread with "Temple Grandin book says this is what happens when kids who already prefer their own imaginary vrs use machine vrs..." and then added the no screens until ten guy as an interesting case, if I had it to do over again.

[Tahlvin]

[Phoebe]

Ok, maybe we really disagree on this, then, because I do think his choice was a good one. By that I don't mean that a different choice is a BAD one, which seemed to be the main point of contention before. (One true way, internet can be enriching, etc.) But if I successfully engage my kids all summer so thoroughly that they forget they have tablets and Xboxes, that would be awesome! I don't expect that to be the outcome, but yeah, it would be good. I grew up totally without these things and on the whole, I think my childhood experiences were better in that respect.

My current life would be better with less of the screen. This is another place where we likely disagree, because I think it affects my kids, and my sense is I'm far from alone in this. It's not because I don't want to or don't make efforts to engage my kids. It's because work life intrudes via these convenient technologies into every part of day. People have expectations; I have expectations for myself too. And while addressing these, wow, there sits most of the social life I cannot so readily obtain in the rest of life. And the habits of being busy with small kids lend themselves to handy reliance on screened devices. I probably would not have showered from 2004 until 2009 without them. Now that my kids are getting older, getting far away from all of this sounds great. It's easier said than done even when you're eager for it.

[Iantha]

[El Jefe]

[El Jefe]

[Tahlvin]

[El Jefe]

[Phoebe]

Oh Lord help me, I am not shaming anyone in the slightest way, and if you want to learn to paint, at some point you have to pick up a brush, unless you are literally painting in a computer program. I might be the last person on Earth who would discourage kids to read, so I'm sorry it didn't work that way in your youth, but that is not the issue here. I enjoy the sincere disagreement of those who sincerely disagree, but it would be nice to have a basic regard for what I have actually claimed. And if you think people learn to paint mostly on the computer, good luck with that, I don't know what else to tell you. I'm going to go watch some crochet videos so a shawl will magically appear in the morning.

[Bonefish]

[Phoebe]

[El Jefe]

[El Jefe]