Star Wars VIII

[Phoebe]

Where is the thread for this? Did I miss it? If so I apologize in advance. Spoilers:















.
.
.
.
Okay, I don't know if I'm just too tired and need a holiday break for a few days to really process and appreciate this properly, but I did not really like this movie all that much. I liked it more than II or III. So if I were in a ranking mood, I would put it #6 out of all the 8 we have had so far (not counting Rogue One). I also blame one of my husband's work colleagues, who said he thought it was second only to Empire, for pointlessly heightening my expectations going in. My son also bounced up and down like a rubber ball during the entire last half hour of the show, waving (or attempting, as I suppressed) his arms above his head wildly. That could have put some damper on the overall. Maybe the theatre was just kind of small, which it was, and without great sound. I dunno. I was UNDERWHELMED. Every time I use the :crybaby: emoticon I get something else that is wrong and not the little person rubbing its eyes with blue tears. But know that I am weeping a few blue tears over this.

[mimekiller]

Luke drinks cum so yea ***** out of *****

[Phoebe]

What does that mean???? It's some kind of god-forsaken milk. I was like, at that juncture:

WTF???!?!?!?!??!?!?!??!?!?!!!!

[FlameBlade]

So there are three storylines.

Put simply, Rey storyline was excellent. Top notch acting from Rey, Kylo, and Luke.

Next, Poe storyline is a bit confusing, could use some help.

I love Finn and Rose, but their plotline is garbage, and would have made the movie much shorter and much better just throwing out Canto Binto thing. That is just too silly for my tastes.

To be honest. Hard for me to rank. Better than prequels, for sure. The movie could use better vetting and editing, and I can see why Rotten Tomato audience is put off quite a bit. The thing about Leia saving herself is so freaking weird, and seemed seriously out of place.

[mimekiller]

[Phoebe]

I think I speak for the trees when I say, again, WTF MILKING SCENE?

I can't really get past that point to do a serious critique. This was made by people responsible for a bunch of shitty tv and movies I dislike and wow did it show. But thankfully they have to work hard to ruin this thing, and a lot of good actors were really working the material, and there were gratuitous sparkly ice foxes and dogbunnycows, so... whatever. It's still a Star Wars episode and not the worst one.

[Phoebe]

OK I can't help but say one other thing for now just to staunch the wound for a while, because probably more words are going to leak out later:

The Jedi island has some kind of Hole. I mean, W. T. F. to that hole, the hole to end all squicky and abject holes and canals forever. It had everything but blood. Milk, yes; blood, no! They just can't get there. But really you guys, that hole was the most laughable warmed over Lost shit ever. That's the point where I kind of felt like throwing objects at the screen, I suppose to see if they would be sucked into the World-Hole. Michael K sometimes calls it a No-No Hole and I feel like forevermore the reference to Jedi Island Hole should be the No-No Hole. It draws you near and them BAM! sucks you right in.

[WillyGilligan]

The milk was just an excuse to reference the blue milk from the original movie. If you want to be charitable, it was showing that Luke had regressed somewhat in his hermitage.

I'm about 1/3rd in favor of what they did to Snoke. Who is he, why does he hate Luke, it doesn't really matter. This is Rey's story, and she's caught up in stuff begun by the machinations of old men, but she just has to deal with it, not follow the rabbit hole. But they frustrated a lot of things set up by the first movie, and that's bad writing.

They also should have let Leia die in the explosion. I loved Carrie Fisher, but they had at least two opportunities to let her die a hero and honor her memory.

[Phoebe]

Agreed about Snoke; in Episode VII I guess they needed someone "above" Kylo and some explanation for why the Rebels hadn't remained victorious in a happy way after Episode VI. [You defeat the most monstrous evil and it buys you about 15 - 20 good years before some crazy political order seizes power again, I guess.] Anyway, they no longer need someone above Kylo, who can handle the task of Darkness in Episode IX all by himself, so Snoke could be safely dispatched.

I also really liked the whole story around his dispatchal, with Kylo and Rey. She knew she could reach him, and we knew that was possible because, thank God, he couldn't bring himself to kill his own mother (at first - he seemed okay with it happening at someone else's hand later). And then, Rey did really reach him on some level, just as Snoke pushed too hard the wrong way and belittled him, which made the decision to kill Snoke and save Rey an easy one. Luckily they made it clear that Kylo's choice, from his perspective, was not some pure act of reclaiming his goodness, but was about shedding the oppressive burden of having a Master and taking on a new not-quite-equal apprentice-partner of his own in Rey. But isn't that always how it is with the Sith? They keep trying to find the best apprentice who can enhance their powers, and eventually they find one good enough to kill his master in the bargain. They outgrow them like a hermit crab, and then immediately want Luke or Rey or whomever to join hands and rule the universe at their side.

The saga of successful and unsuccessful Jedi masters of other Jedi is more variable and interesting in that regard, unlike the Sith for whom it's always the same routine. So you wonder if Kylo will break that cycle on his own side, or will remain evil all the way to the end. Now that he knows Rey is more powerful than other potential apprentices, will he continue trying to turn her to the dark side? It's hard to imagine he'd accept some half-measure in the interim, but in his mind she also betrayed him badly by rejecting his offer, so... who knows.

Ron also thought that Leia should have been killed off in some noble way in this movie, given Carrie Fisher's sad fate, and the pretenses of scenes like Leia's frozen, physics-defying float-in- from space. But I think it is good she lived on, because dying in that manner doesn't really make sense for her character after all the ups and downs of the Rebels and now Resistance. She's kind of the personal embodiment of the cause, she's the link to a happier past they want to make real again, and she galvanizes and inspires the whole side of the Good. We now have a crazy situation where a Mother and her Son are the leaders on opposite sides of the balance of the Force, and I assume that the last movie is all about resolving that somehow. Maybe not having Carrie Fisher for that movie has destroyed a plan, but I assume they'll do something with images or footage they already have of her to propel Kylo's story forward, and they already know it's a essential piece for the final episode.

It sucks because all of this is so interesting - they can't make it less interesting, at this point - and then we get scenes of milking and abject holes in the earth. SIGH.

[buckett]

I liked it but didn't love it. I thought it did have some really clever ways of tweaking and commenting on the Star Wars lore.

I think Luke in particular was handled poorly and I'm not surprised that really hardcore fans have rejected this version of him. When he appears he's a drastically different character and the movie can only explain this change via monologues and very quick flashbacks - all telling and no showing. All that said, for me personally, Mark Hamill (and Adam Driver) are so good that by the end I bought his arc and the finale was great. But I can't blame fans who are upset by this portrayal.

The fight in the throne room was badass, maybe the best of the saga. Also Benicio Del Toro rules.

[mimekiller]

I was thinking about what they said they won't do with Leia which includes

-CGI
-recasting

So what does that leave? Killing her off camera? she died of a stroke right after the end credits of Last Jedi? I was thinking that they could use her voice as kind of a voice of the rebels, encouraging people on space radio or some horseshit like that.

[mimekiller]

Also kudos to the producers of Star Wars to take Han, Luke and Leia and bet on CARRIE FISHER being here for the long run.

[Phoebe]

My guess is that they have enough footage and enough ability to manipulate the images and sounds to have her appear and speak. If I were going to write it I would have Kylo hearing her voice and having flashbacks of her, finding out she has died in some fashion that prompts him to redeem himself - some total opposite / reversal of the way that Anakin learned about Padme and became Darth Vader, to close the loop as it were.

[Phoebe]

So, a question. Much of the plot is driven by one critical event. We are to believe that Leia turns her son over to Luke for Jedi training, and Ben becomes seduced by the Dark side and Snoke. So Luke... fights back? Confronts and destroys Snoke? Works as hard to redeem his own nephew whom he has raised up from childhood at least as hard as he worked to redeem his own father? No. He goes to assassinate him in the night. Uhh...

I just don't buy it. This isn't Luke. It makes total sense that Luke would be despondent over failing to control and guide Kylo, and despondent over him growing up to murder people. But let's face it, both Ben/Kylo and Anakin/Darth grow up to be mass murderers of children, in both cases in order to destroy the Jedi, and there is nothing even slightly redemptive about how those events transpire. Luke knows this about Anakin and still tries to kill Ben? No way, I don't buy it. Nor does it help us to hear this story, because the fact that Luke tried to kill Ben and he was scared does not explain why he murdered all his classmates who were like siblings to him. It explains why he's so angry at Luke, but it doesn't explain anything else and just turns Luke into both failed master and failed monster, where they could have told some other story about him being merely a failed master like Obiwan.

And Yoda intervenes HERE, but didn't do anything when it was time to kill all the little padawans? Eehhh, no. The whole thing is kind of screwed up and sick, and I don't like anything to do with this part of the story because it feels deeply wrong on all levels.

[mimekiller]

I mean Jedis do have a history of becoming hermits after a huge personal failing(see Yoda and OBI WAN) Lukes character arc was one of my favorite deals, being a bitter old asshole who lives with monsters and drinks cum is extremely relatable to me.

Not sure why the YODA GHOST was back to being a impish jackass but sure, was cool to see him back as a puppet tho.

To me the biggest failing of the film is that it leaves me with ZERO interest in episode 9, like...I guess the war continues and everyone wants to shoot Kylo with lazers but besides that eh. If STAR WARS was just canceled because DISNEY CEOS all got collective and intense nero syphilis I wouldn't be sad.

[Phoebe]

[Ronster]

My rants

I did not like ep 2 or 3, but even they were better than this drivel. The antics and every which a way plot lines were a bust for me. I have seen cartoons with more realistic ideas in them. I am sorry it is not just my dislike for the new franchise owners (I thoroughly enjoyed Rogue) but ep 7 I thought was weak but had some good new possibilities; ep. 8 shows the foundation to be weak. Hamil must be hoping he doesn't have to do any more of these.
I have many problems with these, but I attribute most of my vitriol to the fact that I loved the Expanded Universe and these simply don't measure up to even the most flippant storyline found in the EU novels.

1.Luke, who has the best reason to be optimistic of anyone in the galaxy, is now a bitter grump who tosses the lightsaber away? nope
2.Luke would even contemplate murder for the possible dark side leanings of his nephew, but would die to save his corrupt father? nope
3. The tactical situation of Dreadnaught vs the rebels...total failure. I came up with 3 other solutions for the problems of both the FO and the Rebels...Frankly if the Rebels are so poorly run they deserve to be wiped out. Secondly if the FO only has one forward firing cannon then they put the "naught" in dreadnaught...nothing to fear at all. Too bad the FO didn't send a SSD into hyperspace ond have them attacking the Rebels from the other direction. This was just a competition toi see who sucked the most.
4. Poe's Gambit. Why go on a wild goose-chase to save the whales feel good and fail the mission? How 'bout figure out what it is that they're tracking and disable it? or maybe split the fleet? aaagh so irritating. Like watching your favorite team blow a game.
5.Leia's force-float and the decompression that did not happen when they opened the door to retrieve her. Seriously the dude opening the door would have been sucked out and probably impacted her too. All of this would have pushed her farther from safety. It would have made more sense for her to die. It would have given Kylo something new to be brooding and angsty about.
6. the mutiny- while I am sure things would be very tense, there were no FO spies on the bridge and the people deserved to know what was going on. The fact that it ended abruptly seems anti-climactic and unrealistic. Poe missed a good chance o stun c3po.
7.If they could have hyperdrived a ship into the dreadnaught, why didn't they do that with one of the first ships they lost?
8. Luke should have been stronger in the force than that. I mean a convincing apparition was so tiring that he died?

and so on...I'll stop here because it's just sad that it has come to this.


The good things:
Luke had a couple of good lines
Snoke was killed by his apprentice
New cute toys to buy, I mean animals to see

TL/DR; It's all wrong and I am butthurt that they ruined MY SW Universe.


Edit: added this tidbit from an article in NYT...this is not THE article, not even the gist of it, but it sums up what I feel better than I did:

Joshua Swedberg: Everyone has their theory as to why fan reviews are so low. The truth? The script was a hot mess of lazy storytelling, absurd plot holes, recycled ideas and lifeless characterizations. Over 50 percent of the movie is about an elite squadron of Star Destroyers failing to catch a single Rebel transport ship that is taking 20 hours to run out of gas.

The opinions expressed in this forum are my own and I think it is so cute that people actually think they can change them by their criticism

[FlameBlade]

1. Really?
2. Really?

Now I believe that movie is just mocking you. Based on your comments, Luke is your god, not human. He might have ideals, but surely it will be tested? Luke cannot possibly be perfect, despite his bright ideals. The whole movie is about tearing down this deification.

3. No contest. Strategy there is just idiotic. They could have done a tactical retreat ASAP, then learned that they can track. Then adjust.

4/6. Consider how Finn basically blurted out whole plan, makes perfect sense that Holdo would keep her plan close-held. Furthermore, what is Poe's demoted rank relative to Holdo? Why would Holdo tell Poe everything? They need some serious operational security training. I will grant you that Holdo could have handled things better.

5. Really did not like force float thing there. Seemed too out of place, and doesn't make much sense with physics of the universe.

8. Again, making Luke a God where he isn't.

[Phoebe]

Agree with Flameblade that Holdo wouldn't be telling Poe or anyone else anything, under the circumstances. And I disagree with Ronster's #8 only insofar as I think it's a sign Luke has finally become SO strong in the Force that he gets the release from this mortal coil for which he has been hoping and waiting. Now he's off with Yoda and Ben and the other Jedi who have managed the same trick.

Otherwise, TOTALLY AGREE with Ronster's list. Luke doesn't have to be a God to decide there are other ways besides slaughtering his nephew in his sleep - indeed, it would be a very human and very Luke-like response to try something, ANYTHING else besides what we see here. He could still fail in a way that sets up the rest of the plot they wanted - but why did he have to fail in a way that makes him a wanna-be monster too?

The whole ship running out of gas thing was so pathetic a contrivance that at some point they must have inserted that bit about the First Order dudes asking each other, what is all our massive weaponry good for if not to take out this one crappy little Resistance ship? And a lame excuse was given. That was so transparently there to "answer obvious audience objection" and it failed. Maybe the deep lesson of this movie is that they think, like Luke, they need to fail in 8 to succeed in 9. I dunno, I would have liked a success all round. I blame Abrams honestly, I think he's an intellectual lightweight who finds profundity in idiocy.

[El Jefe]