North Korea's Crimes

[Kyle]

Other than trying to develop nuclear weapons and fighting in the Korean War, what are North Korea's crimes?

[Zen]

[Kyle]

Substitute China for North Korea and that's also true-- just on a much, much larger scale.

[Zen]

They learned well from their exemplar.

[Kyle]

Yeah- but my question gets to this: everyone's getting into a hysteria because the "evil" North Korea is threatening to nuke us and "they're crazy enough to do it." But I'm trying to figure out why North Korea has the scorn of the world. What makes North Korea any worse than Pakistan? Why isn't the world all up in Pakistan's shit?

[bralbovsky]

We should be.
At any rate N Korea is so controlled, that about a third of its population considers itself active army or reserves. They do this partly because they're the ones who get to eat.
It's the extreme example. In China, you can be a secret entrepreneur, maybe make some good idea work, maybe even change your station. Just don't crow about it, don't flagrantly break the rules, bribe the right people. China allows emigration. The one child thing was a huge social experiment enforced mostly with social coercion. Folks weren't generally arrested; they were nagged or fired or demoted for noncompliance.
N Korea has none of that or at least so little as to be of no impact.
Pakistan is too messy, not tightly enough managed, a little too heterogeneous to go whole Kim Jung.

NK is largely China's fault. They let it happen largely because they didn't think it would, scientifically, and because having NK makes China look ok by comparison. (Human rights wise)

[WillyGilligan]

We have a complicated history with Pakistan. I suggest reading Charlie Wilson's War about some of it. We have needed them in one way or another for a while, and having a friendly Muslim nation bordering Afghanistan and Iran is useful. But they, like Best Korea are an aid-based economy. Pakistan is better at selling themselves on a mutual benefit scheme to get the stacks, NK learned to threaten and bluster to bring it in.

[Kyle]

I agree with everything you're saying, WG. And nobody should get me wrong- I'm not saying North Korea is not a bad actor-- they certainly are and have committed heinous human rights abuses. But I guess what I'm doing is trying to see this from the North Korea side, right? They have been isolated from the world for as long as I've been alive, and the only real reasons I see for this isolation is: (1) they were involved in the Korean War on a side that the western countries didn't like; and (2) they are trying to develop nuclear weapons. But if you ask North Korea's policy makers why they are developing nuclear weapons, the real answer is that it is there way to gain legitimacy on the world stage. If they hold nuclear weapons, then they can leverage that to force the rest of the world to stop isolating it. I don't think anyone in a position of authority is actually worried that North Korea is going to use their nuclear weapons. And all of this scare-mongering is nonsense. I had enough of this shit in the cold war era, and this is just fucking ridiculous now.

Now if someone wanted to argue that the real danger of North Korea having nuclear weapons is that they might sell that technology or weapons to less-stable regimes or terrorist groups, then I can get engaged in that discussion. But no one is really arguing that.

[Zen]

[Phoebe]

Difference between people there and people here: they didn't get to CHOOSE their leader.

[Kyle]

[poorpete]

Sure they are a country with nukes, there are many. Sure they are authoritarians with nukes, and we've been through that before. Sure they have a deranged leader who might press the button, but so has others throughout the decades (including, currently, US's leader).

I think the difference is the active antagonism against their neighbors are South Korea and Japan, and against the most powerful country, the United States. They actively antagonize verbally for decades, and for the last decade physically by throwing missiles near the first two regularly. Only in the last few months has the US been physically antagonized.

It's new and not fun, so we care about it.

[Zen]

And I think it could be a bit of dog wagging. Let's face it, it happens. We all know that either Serbia/Bosnia (whichever place it was that we bombed in the 90s) or Iraq got an extra dose of bombs every time Clinton's indiscretions were mentioned, or at least it seemed like it. I wouldn't be surprised if this isn't a form of distraction.

[Mike]

Absolutely. Trump and his cohorts and family are in potential legal trouble. He's been unable to get any of his legislative goals through. His polls are miserable. Etc. So therefore, for the last two weeks, everything he's said has been doubling down on the parts of his stump speeches that had the biggest applause lines: We need more police brutality! I'm kicking transgendered people out of the military! We have to keep all the immigrants out! It's about time we investigated all the racism against white people! Fire and Fury! Lock her up!

And as much as his rhetoric about North Korea is horrifying and dangerous and idiotic, I'm betting it's being warmly embraced by his base. To them, this makes him look strong and decisive and leaderlike (leaderly? leaderful?). Finally! It's about time we got someone in the White House willing to quit pussy-footing around with this madman! If they wanna fight, then we'll blow them the hell off the map!

[Phoebe]

[Kyle]

[El Jefe]

They were fans of Rodman. Everybody knows the Bulls would have been just fine without him. That's the biggest crime.

[Phoebe]

I think it was Colbert who was like, Dennis Rodman let us all down. Did he do nothing?

[bralbovsky]

The reason this is an issue right now: There was a grand jury convened. This is the only reason. It's why Venezuela, it's why everything. Someone has said in passing, 'a war could save you,' and he'll likely find one.

The reason NK rather than anyone else: Smokescreen for China - brilliant but probably too effective. Frequent incursions and attacks against South, Routine proclamations of a threatening nature. Also no pretense about military ambitions as opposed to commercial participation. Other nuclear powers have behaved as if they are legitimate, they fake elections, they open embassies, they pretend to have laws and make sort of nice with their neighbors. They choose sides in the Russo-US conflict and invest as a show of loyalty. They pretend to be rational, legitimate actors.

No such pretense. God/leader. People shmeeple, let em starve. Give them aid or else. Laws? see god/leader rule. They sneak across borders, fire rockets at ships, hope they accidentally hit Japan. Have no even inclination of behaving as if once we get nukes they will grow up.
NK is the psychotic kid down the street who sees paranoid visons and refuses to take his meds, oh, and he wants an AR 15 for his birthday, and in sane moments thinks he can assemble one from instructions he's downloaded. Yes, he made gunpowder, in his garage, from cat dung and stolen stuff. He's thrown rocks and broken his neighbor's windows and screams at his mom, all the time. The girl next door is terrified because he's threatened to rape and kill her, but he's been ruled incompetent and is not in jail. BTW his dad and grandad all acted the same way, lived in the same burned house with the same boarded up windows, miraculously there were few casualties.
This is how everyone feels about NK.
We may not trust Pakistan, and perhaps should have called CPS on him. But he goes to work, and he mows his lawn, except the area around that creepy shed. And we don't like him, but he mostly pays his taxes and doesn't freak out at the neighborhood barbecue. Just keep him and India apart and it might be ok. Lots of our neighbors are assholes,but NK is a special case.