Trump

[Mike]

A. Because of the significant number of law enforcement and ex-military who participated in the insurrection, the people who may be called on to protect our government officials and others during the next week are being officially reminded that their oath is to the Constitution. Presumably, many of them are GOP voters and Trump supporters, but they still have to do their jobs.

B. Some GOP House members reported that they wouldn't vote for impeachment because of the sheer volume of death threats aimed at them and their families coming from the same whackjob MAGA-heads that threaten local health officials for accurately reporting numbers or who have sent this same heinous stuff to Ocasio-Cortez and Pelosi for years because they are the GOP's bogeywomen.

[Phoebe]

So they're upset and crying about something that they stir up against others on a regular basis? What horrid babies they are. But hey, same crew that genuinely seems personally affronted when they don't get a religious cup from a coffee maker during December.

Anyway, the more we are finding out - apparently they're investigating whether some members of Congress were photographed taking some of the people who were at the event on a personal tour of the Capitol prior. Perhaps they did point out particular offices of interest or laptops they might want to have, etc. We may well not know all the things that were taken because there might be good reason not to publicly report all of that. I just remember when I was growing up and learning about all this for the first time in school, the expected penalty for betraying and attacking your own nation was death. I don't believe in the death penalty, so obviously I wouldn't like to see that happen, but the alternative to the death penalty is life imprisonment. If a member of Congress is found to have anticipated this event in any way and encouraged it or guided it in any way, I honestly think they deserve life imprisonment and nothing less. I think it would be nice if that option was being frankly discussed when people are interviewed or when the media gives us information about this, so that people could grasp the gravity of the situation a little better. I'm afraid the hubbub is going to die down and the will to punish these people justly will be lost.

[FlameBlade]

B. Some GOP House members reported that they wouldn't vote for impeachment because of the sheer volume of death threats aimed at them and their families coming from the same whackjob MAGA-heads that threaten local health officials for accurately reporting numbers or who have sent this same heinous stuff to Ocasio-Cortez and Pelosi for years because they are the GOP's bogeywomen.

This is teaching others that death threats is working on that group of people and therefore, will continue doing so.

[bralbovsky]

Definition of terrorism. I want to run those cowardly tapes on local tv every day until they're gone.

[Mike]

Headline at Fox news:
"A former spokesman for President Donald Trump has claimed that the president cannot denounce the Capitol rioters because he no longer has a platform to."

...except the White House press briefing room, the White House front lawn, the rose garden, the oval office, Fox and Friends, OAN, literally ANY news agency because all of them would jump at the chance to interview him.

[Tahlvin]

It will be interesting to see if he can refrain from pardoning himself. It's one of the presidential powers he most likes to wield, and being pardoned of any wrong doing is certainly something he wants for himself. On the other hand, doing so is sure to bring on the legal fight, since Democrats cannot let the possibility of a self-pardoning president go unchallenged. It also is admitting that he did something that is in NEED of pardoning, and I'm not sure he can ever admit that he has done anything less than perfect. And does the same feeling extend to his family? Do they get pardons? Or is he incapable of admitting they have done anything that would require pardoning?

Pardonpalooza hits today, so I suppose we'll find out soon enough. Enjoy the last 36 hours or so of the Trump era!

[poorpete]

Amused at some of these Capitol attacker articles going like "from Obama inauguration attendee to Trump rioter" like how can this be possible, instead of "man who adored the most powerful person in the world now a man who adores the most powerful person in the world."

[Mike]

From CNBC:

Trump provoked deadly Capitol riot, Senate GOP leader Mitch McConnell says

"The mob was fed lies. They were provoked by the president and other powerful people," McConnell said on the Senate floor.

Part of me still wants to scream, "Yes, powerful people like you!" But I'm coming around to Pete's view that at least he's saying the right thing. It may be late, and it may be for the wrong reasons, but if I had to put words in his mouth that I thought he might actually say... these would be it.

Mitch's words and Cheney's vote for impeachment give other GOP lawmakers a permission structure that allows them to speak up. It gives them a possible path out of this hole they've dug for themselves, knowing that if enough of them stand together, maybe they can start cleansing their party of some of it's most toxic elements and possibly salvage a political future for themselves. It's a tightrope walk, for sure, but the only other options are starting to look like destroying your own political career or accepting fascism.

[Phoebe]

My beloved Walter Shaub sums up the evening's feelings pretty accurately:
"I feel many things today. They are not all compatible with one another, which is why I'm twitching and barking. Tonight I shall howl at the 37% illuminated waxing crescent moon beside the Potomac. Do not approach unless you are howling too."

[poorpete]

Since the morning after election day I have stayed with this mantra, which I hope will continue to work for at least four years...

If I had to pick, I'd rather be in our boat.

Things are scary and things can feel uncertain, but since November 4th the votes and the law were on our side. Tomorrow, the power and the purse will be too.

[FlameBlade]

Fuck. The abuses we have endured. Many didn't endured this abuse.

[Tahlvin]

Watching CNN air Trump departing on Air Force One while the rally music blares I Did It My Way, juxtaposed with the Bidens and Harrises attending morning mass. It certainly did have a feeling of the profane and the sacred. Noon eastern time cannot come soon enough.

[Tahlvin]

Hot damn!

[Mike]

Right?!?

[Stan]

I really hope Trump makes a new party that is the Trumpiest party possible.

[poorpete]

Mike, time to make it official, and change this thread to "Biden"

[Mike]

That's a brilliant idea! But I feel like a clean sweep is needed. If anyone feels like we need a Biden thread... they can start it.

I'm sure we will have residual Trump stuff anyway.

[Tahlvin]

Just relish the thought that there is now a functional adult responsible for the nuclear football.

[Stan]

Apparently, Trump had been quite taken with Obama's letter to him so took the time to write a nice letter for Biden.

[Phoebe]

There's almost an echo of PTSD in the aftermath. I don't say that lightly - it's like only today could some portion of the brain finally uncoil itself and try to process its unhappiness through years of this.

[FlameBlade]

That's normal. Yesterday or today is one of the rare safe spaces that actually allowed us to start processing exactly what had happened. It's very much like leaving an abusive relationship. So what you are experiencing is a normal reaction. You start to unclench your ass and your teeth and bam, all sort of unexpected emotions come swarming in.

[Phoebe]

That's exactly what it's like. Also like situations where even positive change, if it's disruptive enough, can be experienced as a difficult stress. Like starting a new job or something, maybe it's a great thing but it still brings on all the stresses of new worries and changes. I am kind of at my max stress level right now, and I probably care more about what's happening in the political world than I should bother to, so the combination of private stress and all this, it's just too much. That or the hard boiled egg I ate had been left out of the fridge too long.

[Tahlvin]

If you haven't already, you really should watch the video presented at the beginning of today's impeachment trial. It's history.

[Mike]

I'm telling everyone to watch that. Very powerful. Effective to see events played out in order.

[Phoebe]

Sad and difficult video to watch this morning, yes. What a situation we are in.

[WillyGilligan]

But can Trump's actions fit the legal definition of incitement? And if the case isn't ironclad against him, what does that do 4-8 years from now? Are we destined to just keep litigating past Presidents?

I'm personally stuck between "Do consequences for Trump merit the costs in precedent?" and "Does preventing the precedent merit letting him off with no consequences?" I feel like either way is failure, and I hate living through historic times.

[FlameBlade]

But can Trump's actions fit the legal definition of incitement? And if the case isn't ironclad against him, what does that do 4-8 years from now? Are we destined to just keep litigating past Presidents?

I'm personally stuck between "Do consequences for Trump merit the costs in precedent?" and "Does preventing the precedent merit letting him off with no consequences?" I feel like either way is failure, and I hate living through historic times.

Most damning bit is probably tweeting few things about Pence *while* rioters are inside capitol. If speech itself could be potentially defensible (it's not), tweets are indefensible when he could be getting national guards out there.

One of new information that came out recently -- Trump team personally intervened to alter permit to allow for marching towards Capitol on the day of.

[Akiva]

New reporting shows that Trump tweeted about Pence not having the courage to throw out the electoral results AFTER knowing that Pence was in danger.

Pence was taken away by security at 2:14 (time stamp on the video).

Senator Tuberville spoke to Trump on the phone just after this happened.

Trump's tweet: 2:24 PM.

So he was encouraging his lunatic followers even after he knew about the seriousness of the threats.

[Phoebe]

It was, after all, the goal!

[poorpete]

He played with fire, he burned others. Now he wants the ability to own matches in the future. Nah.

[Phoebe]

Turned it on casually to see what was happening, and the lawyer was saying, this concludes our defense... I feel like I caught the best part. There's a moment in this Korean show I'm watching, Itaewon Class, where the primary villain of the show decides he will give people a pass on something instead of punishing them, this time, but then he asks rhetorically, What about my anger? I'm not sure how to convey the context properly - the idea is that when he has been wronged or disappointed, it is natural and just for him to respond with anger, and if he must show mercy then he is left holding the anger in a way that is unpleasant for him and someone else should take responsibility for it. The way it's presented in the show is quite profound, because the audience is left deeply questioning the meaning of such anger. On the one hand you're thinking, the very mark of being a moral person and not some kind of terrible sociopath is that you control and take responsibility for your own anger, you don't get angry over selfish trivia, and righteous anger would only be provoked when people are treated cruelly or unjustly. But even then the resolution of the cruel treatment should resolve the anger, or so we are told. We have absorbed this ethic about swallowing our anger. On the other hand, the character's comment prompts us to wonder why it would be wrong for people to be angry, and stay angry, particularly if they had good reasons for it. Perhaps moral responsibility also requires that we try to take away other people's anger when we have wrongly provoked it, and until then they are entitled to rage against us, and should give it up only if they find it unpleasant or inconvenient to their own interests. Not because there's anything wrong with having it. These considerations about anger are very present to mind in the current political situation, not to mention in the pandemic response. I also wonder whether hypocrisy is merely cause for scorn or whether it justifies anger. The silver lining of being angry seems to be that when good people come along who do not provoke anger, they are profoundly appreciated.

[Mike]

Seth Meyers showed a clip last night as part of his Closer Look segment, and in it is a speech from Marco Rubio four and a half years ago in which he very eloquently and accurately predicts that electing Trump would be a threat to democracy and would lead to a day when people settle political disputes with violence instead of at the ballot box. And of course, this is immediately followed by Rubio today acting as if his prediction hasn't come horrifyingly true.

It is startling how many examples there are of politicians saying things on camera just a few years apart that directly contradict each other, and how no matter how stark the difference, it never seems to affect anything.

[Phoebe]

Marco Rubio made a bed he's having difficulty lying in now, poor thing. I feel... no sympathy at all.

[Tahlvin]

Seven Republicans voted to impeach. And McConnel’s speech afterwards seems to indicate he wants Trump to be held criminally liable, but he still voted to acquit. Help me understand something: a guilty verdict in the impeachment trial would not preclude Trump from being held criminally liable for his actions, so why not vote to convict and impose the ban on holding office in the future? And Dems, you really should have called witnesses once you had the approval to do so. You could have turned more R’s. Maybe not enough to convict, but maybe. There still needs to be some commission or fact finding on the whole episode before we can close the books on this.

[Phoebe]

It's not like the outcome is a surprise, but still, feelings about it are very low.

[poorpete]

I'll be slightly optimistic.

Since November Nth, it was clear Biden will be president. We went through some tense issues and one incredibly scary moment, but it didn't really change the facts on the ground. A few days after that moment, it's been pretty clear that Trump was going to give up power but not held accountable. So what are the clear facts now? Simply, we have at least 4 years of a Democratic president, 2 years of a Democratic Senate and House. We have a broken fractioned Republican party. For someone who wants Democratic policies implemented, this is a very good position to be in. For someone who wants a health Republican party, it's not looking good but there are a few signs of hope. For someone who wants Trump gone for good, well, things aren't looking great, but looking better than in November.

[Phoebe]

I think you were right and I'm trying to focus on this! It is not easy right now. it's really tragic to have completely cut off contact with so many family members - my mom keeps in touch with some of them and reports that they are just over the edge batshit at this point. She can't have a conversation about any other topic with them, and they just rant on and on about how the Democrats are destroying our nation.

[Tahlvin]

The former guy's tax returns have now been turned over to prosecutors in New York.

[Phoebe]

I guess that doesn't mean they can email everyone a copy. But it's still ok with me.