I have another parenting challenge for you. No the challenge is not how to get my child to put proper clothes on; I don't know that anybody can solve that. Nor are you going to do any better than I am at keeping cleanliness. But I do think most of you would be better at this problem than I am:
I want my kid, who is 100% capable of doing this, to take her fancy test scores, salvage her crap grades, and go to a fancy college. The things that I am trying to say to motivate her to do this are counterproductive insofar as, when we devalue the other outcomes that might occur, and then we fail to achieve the thing set as a goal, we will end up doing something that we know our mom considered a failure to achieve a goal. We know that our mom will consider our future plans lesser than they should have been. That's definitely not the message I wish to convey. You try for the brass ring and if you don't get it you grab the ring you've got and you run with it. None of these outcomes are bad. so how is it that you motivate a person to actually try to get the brass ring, without suggesting that the (what are these other rings anyway? Tin? Steel?) other rings are a lousy outcome?
A Parenting Challenge
Re: A Parenting Challenge
I'd change my expectations. If your child doesn't want to go to college, your insistence is going to make it less likely to happen. Forcing her is a bad idea. But, as with my kids, if they don't want to go to college, then when they're 18 they're adults-- which means they need a plan for their lives. If they don't have one, then they need a job and they need to pay me for rent and food. If they do have a plan, and we're on board with it, then we will likely help them out with it (keep them on our car insurance, not make them pay rent, etc.).
But also understand that I don't think it's a failure to not go to college. I think that it's unrealistic to think that every kid should go to college.
But also understand that I don't think it's a failure to not go to college. I think that it's unrealistic to think that every kid should go to college.
Re: A Parenting Challenge
Just adding to Kyle, I'm not sure that fancy colleges are worth it (I went to a fancyish college). Once you get your first job, what school you went to is largely academic. Living far from home while going to college can be good for some kids but isolating for others.
You could try walking through means-ends analysis. Ask what career they want, from there, list what they have to do, then what they should be doing now.
You could try walking through means-ends analysis. Ask what career they want, from there, list what they have to do, then what they should be doing now.
Re: A Parenting Challenge
I do appreciate the advice and I agree with you both on this; I think I did a bad job of explaining my issue, because the issue is not that she doesn't want to go, it's that she's not doing the needful things to go. But if you say things like, you have to do this thing and you have to do it today, or you're not going to get the thing you want and you're going to get this other thing that's not as good, it makes it sound like the other thing is not as good. I have a pretty good idea of what the academic experience will be like at different places, and if you don't want it or it's not worth the money, then yeah, there is no issue. The other person in the house with a relevant say in the matter does not want it and does not think it's worth the money and has personal feelings about it all. My personal feelings are very different.
The important thing is that the kid claims to want one thing but is taking the actions that will result in doing another. All I can say is that I value all these possible futures, but I still value one of them more than the others, because I think she values it, and it appears to be some sort of zero-sum game where saying this implies less value for other things. It's very frustrating, but not as frustrating as the failure to do the needful things! Which is driving me somewhat batty.
The important thing is that the kid claims to want one thing but is taking the actions that will result in doing another. All I can say is that I value all these possible futures, but I still value one of them more than the others, because I think she values it, and it appears to be some sort of zero-sum game where saying this implies less value for other things. It's very frustrating, but not as frustrating as the failure to do the needful things! Which is driving me somewhat batty.
Re: A Parenting Challenge
Consider letting your kid fail. If they don't do the things they need to do and don't get into college next year (or whenever) then they need to go get a job for a year and pay you for rent and food. Then after a year they can make it into college if they're really serious about it. If they're not really serious about it, then maybe they really don't want to go to college and just aren't being honest (with you or themselves) about it.
Re: A Parenting Challenge
I need to be willing to accept this as one of the outcomes. You are the second person to tell me this - or rather I should say, the first person to suggest it simply wanted to know what would happen if she did fail, like would it be the worst thing in the world for her to just work for a year until she has her head on straight and then goes to college? Or maybe changes her mind about the whole thing, but either way gets some clarity? The first person by the way is known for wisdom so you're in good company there.
I do think it would be better to get serious about it and do it right the first time, than go to college and have the same problems, mess up in college when it counts even more, and then completely fail to achieve a career goal that would have remained possible if one hadn't dabbled in college at all. A lot of people go in with the idea that they're going to be doctors, hit a wall and then are forced to change course. So it would be better to wait until you're ready to do it successfully.
On the other hand, part of me feels like the current difficulties are 92% due to remote learning and 9 months of severely limited social contact during the pandemic, at a peak age when social contact outside the home might matter most. The friends she most wants to see have parents who are similarly serious about avoiding covid, so the good news is that it's not just my fault. The point is, if her current problems are temporary, then let's put a patch on it and get through to successful future quickly. This is where we run into thoughts like, "you shouldn't have gone to a fancy college because your parents spent all this money for you not to fulfill any sort of earnings potential". These aren't my thoughts, obviously.
I do think it would be better to get serious about it and do it right the first time, than go to college and have the same problems, mess up in college when it counts even more, and then completely fail to achieve a career goal that would have remained possible if one hadn't dabbled in college at all. A lot of people go in with the idea that they're going to be doctors, hit a wall and then are forced to change course. So it would be better to wait until you're ready to do it successfully.
On the other hand, part of me feels like the current difficulties are 92% due to remote learning and 9 months of severely limited social contact during the pandemic, at a peak age when social contact outside the home might matter most. The friends she most wants to see have parents who are similarly serious about avoiding covid, so the good news is that it's not just my fault. The point is, if her current problems are temporary, then let's put a patch on it and get through to successful future quickly. This is where we run into thoughts like, "you shouldn't have gone to a fancy college because your parents spent all this money for you not to fulfill any sort of earnings potential". These aren't my thoughts, obviously.
Re: A Parenting Challenge
Yeah, but given the circumstances, a year off before college isn't a bad choice, or a bad thing to have happen.
As my kids get older, I try to let them make their choices and give the advice that they seek- not necessarily the advice I think they need. And to be clear, I think some of them are making poor decisions. But I also think that it's not really my place to be the judge of whether a decision is right or wrong- it's theirs. As long as they're not getting strung out on heroin or engaging in self-harm, then I'm pretty comfortable letting them fuck up. We're all who we are because of our own successes and mistakes. I don't want to deprive my child of making their own mistakes.
And also understand that I'm practicing what I preach. My 17 year old daughter has wanted to save money, convert a van and hike, travel and camp across the country like a vagabond. This was her plan for the last three years. So she worked hard, saved over $17k, converted our used van and now she's on her own traveling the country. Right now she's on an island off Georgia and spending time there partying with a surfer that she's head over heels for. She's not doing the things she said she wanted to do: hike, climb, camp, explore. Instead, when she became smitten with a boy, she stopped all that and is just a homeless chick in a tourist town. So even though I think she's lost sight of some things and isn't making the best decisions, these are her choices to make and if she's making her mistakes- then they are her mistakes to learn from. I'm confident, though, that she'll come out a better person for all of this.
As my kids get older, I try to let them make their choices and give the advice that they seek- not necessarily the advice I think they need. And to be clear, I think some of them are making poor decisions. But I also think that it's not really my place to be the judge of whether a decision is right or wrong- it's theirs. As long as they're not getting strung out on heroin or engaging in self-harm, then I'm pretty comfortable letting them fuck up. We're all who we are because of our own successes and mistakes. I don't want to deprive my child of making their own mistakes.
And also understand that I'm practicing what I preach. My 17 year old daughter has wanted to save money, convert a van and hike, travel and camp across the country like a vagabond. This was her plan for the last three years. So she worked hard, saved over $17k, converted our used van and now she's on her own traveling the country. Right now she's on an island off Georgia and spending time there partying with a surfer that she's head over heels for. She's not doing the things she said she wanted to do: hike, climb, camp, explore. Instead, when she became smitten with a boy, she stopped all that and is just a homeless chick in a tourist town. So even though I think she's lost sight of some things and isn't making the best decisions, these are her choices to make and if she's making her mistakes- then they are her mistakes to learn from. I'm confident, though, that she'll come out a better person for all of this.
Re: A Parenting Challenge
Can you maybe get that level of acceptance for the sprouts choosing their own directions into a capsule form so I can pop it like a pill along with two extra strength ibuprofen and a wee dram of something?
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bralbovsky
- Posts: 175
- Joined: Thu Dec 17, 2020 11:05 pm
Re: A Parenting Challenge
Shifting expectations is good. Gotta shift the weight of the whole endeavor to her also.
Information can be better. If she has a path in mind, have her take a look at where she might want to make her next steps. If she sees the specs for admission, she'll either be discouraged or inspired. She may still be at the stage of the HS football star hoping to get to his favorite NFL team without understanding how miraculous that is. It really needs to be her plan, which you support. Pick where to visit, I'll get you there, kind of thing. The more ownership she has the better.
One side note: Recommend a place where she can be in the top of the class. Top 10% from University of Maryland earns more than second 25% from Harvard (Numbers inexact, I'm still looking for the study) Point is, being a standout is important regardless of her level.
Information can be better. If she has a path in mind, have her take a look at where she might want to make her next steps. If she sees the specs for admission, she'll either be discouraged or inspired. She may still be at the stage of the HS football star hoping to get to his favorite NFL team without understanding how miraculous that is. It really needs to be her plan, which you support. Pick where to visit, I'll get you there, kind of thing. The more ownership she has the better.
One side note: Recommend a place where she can be in the top of the class. Top 10% from University of Maryland earns more than second 25% from Harvard (Numbers inexact, I'm still looking for the study) Point is, being a standout is important regardless of her level.
Re: A Parenting Challenge
I have to say, college admission in the coming years will be interesting, as they get this pandemic generation applying. I believe our state university system has indicated they will not be requiring ACT/SAT scores for the next couple years, and many of the high schools went with pass/fail grades and froze students' GPAs, so GPA will not be quite the factor it was in the past either, at least for the next few years. I'm glad our son is a junior and not a senior this year. That way, hopefully he'll have in person classes his senior year. But he'll be starting the application process over this coming summer, and his most recent grades on his high school transcript are all going to be from these remote classes.
Re: A Parenting Challenge
My 16 year old daughter is taking advantage of this to apply to undergraduate schools-- she wants to eventually go to medical school. But as homeschoolers, there's normally a lot of subject specific SATs you need to take- and all those requirements are thrown out the window. Considering she graduated last summer, this was kind of a free opportunity for her to take a shot at.Tahlvin wrote: ↑Fri Dec 18, 2020 12:10 pm I have to say, college admission in the coming years will be interesting, as they get this pandemic generation applying. I believe our state university system has indicated they will not be requiring ACT/SAT scores for the next couple years, and many of the high schools went with pass/fail grades and froze students' GPAs, so GPA will not be quite the factor it was in the past either, at least for the next few years. I'm glad our son is a junior and not a senior this year. That way, hopefully he'll have in person classes his senior year. But he'll be starting the application process over this coming summer, and his most recent grades on his high school transcript are all going to be from these remote classes.
Re: A Parenting Challenge
That's awesome! Hope it works out for her.
Re: A Parenting Challenge
That is an unforeseen silver lining - it will really help some kids and I hope yours ends up being one of them! My kid happens to have really good test scores, and it's pretty bogus that the window this gives on her suitability for college will be so narrow yet so influential, in a year when a lot of people don't have test scores at all for good reason. But I'll take it, whatever works.
The whole way many colleges do admissions is such crap, honestly. Combine high school grades for which you have minimal ability to compare and contrast different students, with standardized exams that offer either coarse-grained differentiation and distorted expectations about high school course content, or else finer differentiation accomplished through a biased, elitist test instrument run by a bad monopoly. You can deviate from this formula, of course, if you're dealing with a person whose parents are big alumni donors, wealthy enough to pay the full fare without aid, or a student who is a really useful point guard for the team. The whole thing is a mess, an absolute crap mess.
I feel deeply about this as a life project, like it is a goal to ensure that people who do not wish to play this game or cannot play it effectively are never limited from having the most open and successful future they can achieve. It gets to deep issues with what "merit" really means, but it's also an utterly lousy way for a society as a whole to process people through to the modes of contributing to society that will maximize their talents and potentials. Our whole system from high school to college is messed up - it might be even worse in other countries, in ways we manage to avoid, but if we could simply decide that we WANT as many kids to succeed as possible, and we WANT to support them in becoming functional, flourishing adult citizens, we could do that so easily. We are choosing this crap system because the people who benefit have no incentive to change it, and change from the other side is hard.
The whole way many colleges do admissions is such crap, honestly. Combine high school grades for which you have minimal ability to compare and contrast different students, with standardized exams that offer either coarse-grained differentiation and distorted expectations about high school course content, or else finer differentiation accomplished through a biased, elitist test instrument run by a bad monopoly. You can deviate from this formula, of course, if you're dealing with a person whose parents are big alumni donors, wealthy enough to pay the full fare without aid, or a student who is a really useful point guard for the team. The whole thing is a mess, an absolute crap mess.
I feel deeply about this as a life project, like it is a goal to ensure that people who do not wish to play this game or cannot play it effectively are never limited from having the most open and successful future they can achieve. It gets to deep issues with what "merit" really means, but it's also an utterly lousy way for a society as a whole to process people through to the modes of contributing to society that will maximize their talents and potentials. Our whole system from high school to college is messed up - it might be even worse in other countries, in ways we manage to avoid, but if we could simply decide that we WANT as many kids to succeed as possible, and we WANT to support them in becoming functional, flourishing adult citizens, we could do that so easily. We are choosing this crap system because the people who benefit have no incentive to change it, and change from the other side is hard.
Re: A Parenting Challenge
Yep.
Remember, Jared Kushner has a degree from Harvard. Proof that the system is skewed.
Remember, Jared Kushner has a degree from Harvard. Proof that the system is skewed.
Re: A Parenting Challenge
Thanks to the inimitable Bette Midler, the information that Kaylie? Kayla? Kay--- McEnany? McMenamy? McEnemy? graduated from there too has bubbled to the surface. But the best was when the anonymous author of the news tidbit got in a little dagger in the last paragraph - she also attended Georgetown. Someone wanted to make sure we knew that, in this context, lol!!!
Re: A Parenting Challenge
Kayleigh Mcenany Is extremely brilliant. She’s just devoid of morals or principles. But it doesn’t make her dumb.
Re: A Parenting Challenge
Not saying she's dumb, but she's certainly proof that the system is skewed. Rich private prep school grad goes to private schools for rich people; emerges with no morals whatsoever.
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bralbovsky
- Posts: 175
- Joined: Thu Dec 17, 2020 11:05 pm
Re: A Parenting Challenge
Radix malorum est cupiditas
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FlameBlade
- Posts: 96
- Joined: Sun Dec 20, 2020 2:31 pm
Re: A Parenting Challenge
Just remember that it has been a horrible year, and I think taking a gap year wouldn't be a bad idea...we all need to recover and reorient ourselves in some ways.
Re: A Parenting Challenge
We discussed gap year this AM. I don't think she wants to do it but it may be the best option. Just don't know yet. We are at "one hour at a time" here, as opposed to even "one day at a time". Just one hour, let's see. Next hour. Let's see. I'm to a point of exhaustion. It all coincides with massive work pressures for both husband and me. The perspective of the middle child has been very helpful: lots of unhappy people down here, wow, think I'll exit this area, and also Dad is in such a mood he cannot even be talked to, so... byeee! Dad has good reasons for his poor mood, honestly, anyone would be in a foul mood. However, I am exhausted from it. I've been so supportive for 20 years and if I'm not being adequately supportive, what have I even been doing all this time? Why? Like what is the purpose of LIFE if I'm not being adequately supportive, since so much else was sacrificed to achieve that? Nevertheless, I think I'm somehow inadequately supportive of my kid, because I can't solve it. I realize adulting means solving one's own problems, but like, I should have prevented the problems and provided the solutions.
Re: A Parenting Challenge
Hey- you’re just at the bottom of a quarantine hole right now and can only see the walls around you, not the light at the top. It’s tough to get perspective right now because everything is just so hard. But this will pass, I promise you. Taking things hour by hour is fine. But you’ll get through this. Just remember- you’ve got Stans Saturday game to look forward to!
Re: A Parenting Challenge
Thank you, I think I am medium way up in the hole, so that's good!
Update: peace in the valley is partially restored. Bad month, bad year. I'm mentally, physically, emotionally exhausted by this peak experience of constantly trying to do things for everyone for which they are not only very much not grateful, but sometimes actively hostile or undermining, or need to pretend I'm not doing at all so that they can get full credit for the one rare time they might do something. It's useful to know that the pandemic situation is playing havoc with everyone's sleep schedule, across many different countries. I'm simultaneously really sad that we aren't able to do our normal Christmas things here, but also marveling at how little has been accomplished and here it is the 24th. There's no way it could have happened this year anyway.
Update: peace in the valley is partially restored. Bad month, bad year. I'm mentally, physically, emotionally exhausted by this peak experience of constantly trying to do things for everyone for which they are not only very much not grateful, but sometimes actively hostile or undermining, or need to pretend I'm not doing at all so that they can get full credit for the one rare time they might do something. It's useful to know that the pandemic situation is playing havoc with everyone's sleep schedule, across many different countries. I'm simultaneously really sad that we aren't able to do our normal Christmas things here, but also marveling at how little has been accomplished and here it is the 24th. There's no way it could have happened this year anyway.