Trump possibly shot at rally

[Mike]

Popping noise at Trump rally, and then his hand goes to his ear as he goes to the floor, and secret service agents rush to cover him. When he comes up, he is seen to have blood on his ear and face. Agents rush him away and bundle him into a car which leaves with him. He is said to be safe and expected to be fine.

[Phoebe]

I don't know why this shocks me so much, given what happened to Reagan and others before that, but it does shock and horrify me. When my kid first told me about it I didn't really take her seriously and the first news reports just didn't make clear the gravity of what had happened. The first headline blurbs made it seem like Trump had fallen down and injured himself rather than surviving a serious attempt on his life!

The details unfolding are surprising. Apparently the security team just let go this whole area a few hundred feet from the stage, and were slow to act even once rally attendees had spotted the guy. I don't know if all this is true and probably you're reading the same thing I am but I'm just amazed that it wasn't tighter security. Having been to other events like this, I remember security was thick all over, and particularly could be seen up high. It's kind of amazing they would let someone have access for such a long time to an area with that vantage point, so close to the stage!

Anyway, thank God he lived, and how terrible that other people died. It has to be unquestionably safe for people to go to events like this. Just horrible! Obviously I am never going to vote for the guy but when I saw him stand up and the blood was coming off the side of his head I just felt sick with fear for him and in general that anything like that could happen. Maybe because I have kids that age my mind went to Barron and how he would have to see this and how he would feel.

[Tahlvin]

Lots of thoughts, but need some time to process.

[Mike]

The shooter (now dead) has been identified as a 20 year old male who apparently is a registered Republican and never-Trumper.

We'll see what new and/or clarified facts shake out over time.

I am grateful he is not dead, and I'm grateful that the shooter does not appear to be a liberal Democrat. Essentially, I'm grateful for the parts of this that make future violence less likely in my estimation.

[Tahlvin]

I’m glad he’s not dead or seriously injured. I don’t want him to be a martyr for his messed up political ideology. I’d rather he live out the remaining days of his life behind bars paying for the crimes we already know he’s committed. I do wonder what this will do to his state of mind, which seemed questionable to begin with.

[DMDarcs]

The details unfolding are surprising. Apparently the security team just let go this whole area a few hundred feet from the stage, and were slow to act even once rally attendees had spotted the guy. I don't know if all this is true and probably you're reading the same thing I am but I'm just amazed that it wasn't tighter security. Having been to other events like this, I remember security was thick all over, and particularly could be seen up high. It's kind of amazing they would let someone have access for such a long time to an area with that vantage point, so close to the stage!

This was the part that surprised me. I remember playing at SU's graduation the year that Biden (then VP) was the commencement speaker. We had to arrive 2 hours before our normal call team, as everyone's instrument cases had to be thoroughly examined. Valve oil needed to be tested, mutes were examined, trumpet stands dismantled, etc. The security was intense. Secret Service agents surrounded the group (about 35 musicianss) as we played. Right behind the stage, on the stadium floor, was an armored vehicle prepared to take off at a moment's notice if needed. I'm sure there were snipers hiding out in the air ducts.

My dad used to work at a retail store in downtown Syracuse. One year, Hilary Clinton was scheduled to be in the St. Patrick's Day parade. I'm trying to remember exactly when this was (I marched in the parade that year), and I think it was either as she was running for or just shortly after she became a NY Senator. My dad's store was nearby the route, and three days prior to the parade his store started seeing a huge influx of Secret Service agents. (He did wisely refrain from sticking the cardboard cutout of Jar-Jar Binks holding a broom handle next to the third story window.)

I don't know where former presidents hang in the hierarchy of Secret Service protections, but I would imagine that it would still be fairly high.

[Mike]

I know a full investigation into the actions of the Secret Service at this incident will not come out before the election (if ever), but I would love to see it.

I am no expert, and I can only go by what other people say, but it seems like a dereliction of duty to have allowed a 20 year old with an AR to get into that position in the first place. It was a clear danger point, and there should have been a government sniper already in place there before anyone came a-calling.

It seems weird that the Secret Service didn't have Trump on the ground ASAP and then bundled into an armored van before any of the audience could figure out what happened.

It's doubly weird that all these Secret Service agents couldn't keep a 78 year man on the ground and he somehow pushed them off and got out in the open again to fist pump and scream "Fight!" and make himself a giant orange target again.

There is a film purportedly of the sniper who shot the assassin. It looks authentic, again, I'm no expert. It could be something completely different. In any case, in this film, the guy is looking through his scope. He lifts his head to check out whatever he sees without the scope. Then the shots are fired, so this guy gets back in his scope and pulls the trigger, stopping the bad guy with the gun. But he doesn't move his own gun at any time, which would mean he already has this guy in his sights before shots were fired.

Again, I know nothing, but I think that at a minimum, everyone on this security detail needs to be fired for gross negligence.

[Tahlvin]

I'm not surprised at a lax in attitude by the Trump Secret Service detail. This is the Trump that on January 6 wanted the magnetometers removed from his rally because the crowd was "his people" and wouldn't try to hurt him even if they WERE armed. From what I've read, there are a fair number of SS agents who were/are pro-Trump (fits with the whole conservative-lean of law enforcement). Trump has probably said similar things about his campaign rally crowds, not wanting them put off by too much security, and a SS detail that probably agrees with his attitude that Trump's fans wouldn't want to hurt him even if they were armed, and I could easily see them taking shortcuts and overlooking obvious details.

From what I've read, the shooter was spotted and local law enforcement was warned of his presence over a minute before the shooting started, and local law enforcement informed the Secret Service before the shooting started. The fact that none of them rushed to get Trump off stage before the shooting started is a bit boggling. I know it's not much time to someone like me, but that's what these people train for.

Given the previously known, pro-Trump leanings of the Secret Service, and their poor performance in this situation, how confident do you think Biden is with his security detail right about now?

[Mike]

Yes. Never attribute to malice...

[Tahlvin]

Interesting, I just heard that a police officer went onto the roof to see about the suspicious person, saw the suspect had an AR-style rifle and the officer only had a handgun, so the officer backed off rather than confronting the suspect, which happened moments before the suspect opened fire.

[DMDarcs]

I'm not a gun owner, I've never fired a gun. I am pro-gun control, but I don't think that firearms should necessarily be abolished. I fully support the rights of gun owners to carry their firearms provded that proper licensing, training, and safety precautions are being used. Just explaining my personal bias before I ask the following question.

Aren't there supposed to be "good guys with guns" to prevent this sort of thing? I mean, I'm sure the security detail at rallies probably prevents people from bringing guns, with good reason. But isn't this exact thing the reason why Secret Service and law operatives are supposed to have guns and be trained in the proper use? Or some other means of proper defense? I had to get trained on how to disarm an active shooter, and I'm a damn band teacher. And that was the minimum level of training.

[Mike]

You are not wrong. For whatever reason, the Secret Service here was incredibly lax and unprofessional. Securing the perimeter was 100% their job. Coordinating with local law enforcement was also their job. All of the things that went wrong here were their fault. Trump's safety was their #1 priority, and nothing should sway them from that. Even the president himself shouldn't be allowed to order anything that conflicts with their duty to protect.

[Phoebe]

One of the saddest things I ever heard from my kids was a few days after this... One of them was watching video of the event and remarked that it was obvious the crowd was all middle-aged or older people. Because many were still just standing there even after they knew something bad was going on, and if it had been people in their '20s or teenagers, they're all trained six times a year how to fight against an active shooter and seek immediate cover or hit the deck. The kid was like, I expected everybody to dive or start throwing things and rushing toward wherever they thought the shots were coming from. This is wild to me. Conceptually I know the kids are being trained in these active shooter things but I don't give enough thought to what that's actually like for them. Ever since kindergarten they've all been told that if you hear a popping sound or someone tells you there's an active shooter or lockdown, you've immediately taken cover and armed yourself with a textbook or chair or whatever you've got ready to hand, just in case. What the hell, culture?

[Phoebe]

But I should add in this time when everybody is on edge with the political situation, one of the nicest things that seemed truly genuine was hearing that Biden and Trump talked on the phone and not only did Biden say nice things to him but Trump actually reported that Biden said nice things to him, and they both seem to have a moment where we were in this thing together. It's just good to know that in a crisis there is still going to be a bonding together on at least some crucial matters.

[Tahlvin]

Another apparent assassination attempt. Suspect is a 60 yo white male, former Trump voter with a weird social media history. And oddly timed to distract from the pet-eating nonsense. It will be interesting to see what the history of this time reads like 20, 30, 40 years in the future.

[Mando]

This was some of the pics from his socials...from the internet, but a lot of stuff can be faked to make anyone the bad guy. His politics aside, nobody should be shooting anybody. At least the Feds got him quickly
He is alive and in custody for now. With luck and good security the truth will out...hopefully

[Mando]

Like I said, they could set me up the same way very easily.

[Phoebe]

Well I tried to interrupt my posting of flowers and recipes on Instagram by saying that we shouldn't have political violence and I was immediately blocked from posting anything further. So I congratulate myself on being a champion troll for all times and ages and purposes. I just don't even know what to say at this point. I'm an old lady and I'm definitely about the farthest thing from a professional troll you can get, yet for some reason my powers manifest on the internet as toxic. And I mean literally, the same powers I used on this very day to live my daily life as the opposite of whatever an internet troll does.

The best part of all was when somebody told me they had donated to Harris in my honor, presumably assuming that if you don't want people to get shot at that makes you some kind of rabid maga Trump supporter. Well no, maybe we just shouldn't shoot our political enemies or make fun of it afterward. But maybe this is my gift: to fundraise for Harris by pissing off other Harris supporters because I don't have enough hatred in me.

[Tahlvin]

Apparently, he's been involved in multiple armed standoffs with police in the past. An officer involved in one of those a few years ago said in an interview that he figured the guy was either dead or in jail.

[Phoebe]

I'm surprised more nuts like this haven't come out of the woodwork... I wonder if sometimes we don't hear about them because of the tendency to inspire copycat behavior, and the information that might be revealed about how they gained access. In retrospect, We hear of a certain number of people who were thwarted but it's not always clear at what stage of the planning process they might have been.

Well the good news is that I didn't say anything wrong after all. My content is fine and not troll worthy. But it is thought that I am an AI bot. I don't like the suggestion that I'm a robot because it always brings to mind that creepy memory of the cylons and how difficult it can be for them to know themselves... I can't really rule it out to be honest. It does suck to have to start afresh on Instagram because either their AI thinks you are a kindred spirit or some requisite amount of humans decided you were a bot and aren't going to change their mind about it. I was keeping track of many good recipes y'all.

[Mike]

Yeah, this one is definitely fake. The entire profile is inconsistent with what is known about the guy and about his political views. It seems specifically designed to feed into what a person who is a fervent MAGA supporter thinks a stereotypical liberal Dem is like.

This is likely an accurate screenshot of a search for his political donations. Reporting from major news agencies say he gave about $140 to democratic candidates over the years despite having voted for Trump. But it definitely didn't come from his own social media.

This could be anyone. And again it looks like it's just rage bait. He's a gun owner and militant who wants more than anything to go fight in Ukraine against Russia. If he was going to put signage on his truck, it would reflect his passions.

[Kyle]

First and foremost- he's clearly mentally ill. He was a former Trump supporter, turned anti-Trump, and then tried to fight for the Ukrainians against Russia, but was largely seen as ineffective. Like someone else said, he has a history of standoffs with the police.

That said, there's something to the argument that violent extremists are being encouraged by the rhetoric. While I agree that much of the hate and rhetoric comes from the GOP side of things, democrats are guilty of this too- it's just that the violent rhetoric isn't coming from the people at the top. But if you look through social media, a number of liberals have also resorted to the name calling and belittling of anyone that labels themselves republican. Just like we should want the MAGA world to stop talking about "libtards" and "snowflakes" we also should want liberals to stop talking about "idiots who worship the orange buffoon" and "snowflakes."

[Phoebe]

I don't know, I'm not convinced that the rhetoric is what motivates people to do things like this. Like in the absence of the rhetoric I think they would still be motivated, and the presence of the rhetoric isn't causing fresh nutters to come out of the woodwork and do something. It's not that the negative rhetoric is admirable but I just think unfettered speech is the way. Anytime you've got the impulse to curb political speech, It's usually in the service of something very bad. So I feel like it takes a lot of heavy evidence to overturn that principle.

[Kyle]

I definitely think that's true, right? Reagan was still going to have his assassination attempt. Crazies are always going to be out there. But I think the rhetoric amps it up and makes it more likely. Imagine that you're a mentally ill person that is contemplating something extreme like this, and then every day-- on the news; on social media; on the websites you visit-- you're more and more convinced that you're absolutely right and extreme action needs to be taken. I think that has a tangible effect. I'm not saying that it's caused by the rhetoric, but it definitely has an effect.

[Tahlvin]

Man, yesterday was nuts! The GOP NC governor candidate was exposed as having posted on a porn site that he was a "black Nazi", among many other vile comments. A reporter for New York magazine that was covering RFK Jr's campaign was put on leave after admitting to having an online relationship with him during the campaign. Trump made anti-Semitic comments at an anti-Antisemitism conference. And a friend of Matt Gaetz dropped a defamation lawsuit but is now being counter-sued for legal expenses and the legal documents filed as part of that show that Mr. Gaetz was at a sex party in 2017 with the underage female he has denied having sex with.

My head is spinning.

[Phoebe]

This is the downside of the Bannon media strategy: We are worn out from all this crap. Nobody is enjoying it anymore and nobody asked for it.

[Tahlvin]

Trump was in our small Wisconsin village today, speaking at a local factory. First Republican presidential candidate to campaign here in decades. And pisses me off that he's here, spewing his hate in my town.